We we're trying to win the whole time, we just could not after Drummond got hurt. When he came, we started to win again.

Dumars has been adamantly anti-tanking for a while. Even with Drummond back, there were certainly ways we could have tweaked games to lose without the players just giving up. Dumars is loyal, supportive, and believes in the integrity of the game. That made him a great teammate and player. At this point, though, it puts the team he manages at a severe disadvantage. Teams get ahead by gaming the system (Miami trio taking less than max, OKC tanking early). Every advantage you might have (money for the big markets, taxes in income tax-free states, geographical impact on games played) you have to exploit. Dumars is still trying to play it straight in a crooked system, and he's getting burned.

mhughes0021 said:

yo pistons....hows your reverse tank theory working out for you....

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Absolutely perfect last year.

It takes time to rebuild guys, I can't be the only one that sees we're going in the right direction...Its going to be a tough ass team with Drummond and Monroe down low, and I love the way Dumars is rebuilding, hes done everything right since Gores took over and hes had more freedom.

jrange378 said:

It takes time to rebuild guys, I can't be the only one that sees we're going in the right direction...Its going to be a tough ass team with Drummond and Monroe down low, and I love the way Dumars is rebuilding, hes done everything right since Gores took over and hes had more freedom.

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It does seem that we're finally moving in the right direction, but Joe has not been doing everything right since Gores took over. Gores officially took over at the start of free agency in 2011. He was the known buyer for a month before that.

Moves Joe has made since summer 2011:

Picked Brandon Knight 8th - Knight has been a terrible Pro.
Re-signed Tayshaun Prince - Everyone felt Joe overpaid, and Tayshaun was already an ill-fit for the team going forward.
Re-signed Rodney Stuckey - Once again overpaid, Stuckey never became a PG or an effective scorer.
Traded a first round pick for Charlotte to take away the last year of Ben Gordon's contract - Essentially, Joe sold a likely lottery pick in a very deep draft for 12 million dollars (historically a terrible business move).
Signed Lawrence Frank as head coach - This admittedly was considered a Gores move, but it didn't work out either way. The team never improved under Frank and he was fired before his contract even ran out.

Traded Tayshaun Prince and Austin Daye (another wasted pick) for Jose Calderon - This opened up more cap space in the summer, but had no positive effect on the team. This is incomplete until we see what happens with the cap space, but it's also a shallow FA class (we won't get Paul or Howard) and Joe's last foray into FA was a disaster.

Drafted Andre Drummond 9th - A great pick. Also a lucky pick, as very few people expected Drummond to fall that far.

everyoneneedsasmil said:

Picked Brandon Knight 8th - Knight has been a terrible Pro.

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What's your opinion on Knight going forward? I put the Pistons on the backburner this year and only caught a handful of games, so I didn't really get a feel for how he was playing. From a numbers standpoint it's striking how similar his stats were to his rookie season.

I guess the question is, do you think there's any chance he develops into a competent 1 or 2? Seems like another tweener...not enough playmaking ability to play the point, not enough size or athleticism to play the off guard.

deathroh said:

What's your opinion on Knight going forward? I put the Pistons on the backburner this year and only caught a handful of games, so I didn't really get a feel for how he was playing. From a numbers standpoint it's striking how similar his stats were to his rookie season.

I guess the question is, do you think there's any chance he develops into a competent 1 or 2? Seems like another tweener...not enough playmaking ability to play the point, not enough size or athleticism to play the off guard.

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He will never be a PG, probably will be our SG going forward with Calderon as a stop gap until we get a PG. Knight can score in bunches but isn't a floor general. I think the jury is still out on him.

I think Dumars is gearing the team to be a big man driven defensive team that eats up rebounds and dominates down low on both ends. We just need athletic forwards that can score and stretch the floor.

deathroh said:

What's your opinion on Knight going forward? I put the Pistons on the backburner this year and only caught a handful of games, so I didn't really get a feel for how he was playing. From a numbers standpoint it's striking how similar his stats were to his rookie season.

I guess the question is, do you think there's any chance he develops into a competent 1 or 2? Seems like another tweener...not enough playmaking ability to play the point, not enough size or athleticism to play the off guard.

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I think he has the potential to replicate Avery Bradley as a defensive ace who also can hit some open shots. Right now, his offensive game is very poorly implemented. He has trouble getting to the rim, and is just a really bad finisher. His outside shot is inconsistent, but I think it should remain a weapon at above average efficiency (37-40%). The problem is that he takes a lot of mid-range shots which he's isn't effective hitting, and just aren't worth as many points.

Now, I say that he CAN be like Avery Bradley, but I think he would more naturally take to a Jason Terry or OJ Mayo (with the Grizz) role. That is, he is a scoring guard. He doesn't have great vision or passing skills, and his first instinct is to shoot. He's probably too small to be a starting SG, but really not suited to be a PG. In a perfect world, he would be a scorer off the bench, but one that pesters ball-handlers defensively.

Like you were saying, I really wasn't impressed with his second year. The numbers are about the same and watching the games he didn't look any different/better either. He still has the capacity to drop 25 points when his shot is falling, but also the penchant to go 1-10 from the field with no assists and three turnovers. I think his athleticism gives him the chance to be a quality defender (though he still has a ways to go), but his loose ballhandling and inconsistent shooting will lead to a career as a backup. I certainly hope that he somehow breaks out next year, but at this point I wouldn't skip drafting any position because of him.

jrange378 said:

He will never be a PG, probably will be our SG going forward with Calderon as a stop gap until we get a PG. Knight can score in bunches but isn't a floor general. I think the jury is still out on him.

I think Dumars is gearing the team to be a big man driven defensive team that eats up rebounds and dominates down low on both ends. We just need athletic forwards that can score and stretch the floor.

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I think the team MUST be an interior oriented one that dominates the boards in paint scoring. And yeah, we need shooters in a big way, especially since neither Monroe nor Drummond can pull defenders out of the paint with a jump shot. The defensive dominance is going to be tough, though. Monroe is a really bad defender, and Drummond is still very young and raw on that end. If we could get someone like Oladipo as a big versatile defender on the wing, while filling the other spots with shooters, we could really go places.

You look at the Lakers sans Kobe, and that's the kind of team we are emulating. They weren't very good even with Kobe precisely because their perimeter defense was so porous. You can hide one or even two wing defenders by getting them to stay with their man on the three point line and letting Drummond clean up anybody who tries to drive. But at least one of them needs to be relied upon to guard elite scorers effectively.

deathroh said:

What's your opinion on Knight going forward? I put the Pistons on the backburner this year and only caught a handful of games, so I didn't really get a feel for how he was playing. From a numbers standpoint it's striking how similar his stats were to his rookie season.

I guess the question is, do you think there's any chance he develops into a competent 1 or 2? Seems like another tweener...not enough playmaking ability to play the point, not enough size or athleticism to play the off guard.

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Pretty much agree with that assessment of Knight. He's a bench combo guard on a decent team.

The question is, will we get a Guard to replace Knight and stick him on the bench? I don't think we will anytime soon, as forward is a more pressing need.

jrange378 said:

The question is, will we get a Guard to replace Knight and stick him on the bench? I don't think we will anytime soon, as forward is a more pressing need.

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It all comes down to opportunity. If Joe re-signs Calderon and manages to get a good deal on a second tier player (like Redick), there's nothing to stop us from benching him. Overall, Knight hasn't just been disappointing, he's been really bad. It wouldn't take a great player to replace him in the starting lineup. SF is only a slightly greater need than SG. Knight and Stuckey were failures at the 2, just as Singler is not a starting caliber 3. We could improve the team by equal measure getting a good player at either spot.

Consider the players available in FA and the draft. If someone like Oladipo is still on the board, we take him and start him. If someone like Burke, we take him and hope Knight/Stuckey improve. If we land Redick or Mayo (I hope not, but Joe seems to enjoy overpaying undersized, overrate guards), we put Knight on the bench.

I don't think it's expressed enough, but Knight hasn't been any good. Part of his projection as a bench player stems from the fact that he's just not done anything well as a starter. The team may choose to bank on his development because they have no other options, but he wouldn't be starting for ANY other team in the league right now. If we go into next year with Knight as our starting PG or SG, it will be an indictment of our overall talent.

everyoneneedsasmil said:

It all comes down to opportunity. If Joe re-signs Calderon and manages to get a good deal on a second tier player (like Redick), there's nothing to stop us from benching him. Overall, Knight hasn't just been disappointing, he's been really bad. It wouldn't take a great player to replace him in the starting lineup. SF is only a slightly greater need than SG. Knight and Stuckey were failures at the 2, just as Singler is not a starting caliber 3. We could improve the team by equal measure getting a good player at either spot.

Consider the players available in FA and the draft. If someone like Oladipo is still on the board, we take him and start him. If someone like Burke, we take him and hope Knight/Stuckey improve. If we land Redick or Mayo (I hope not, but Joe seems to enjoy overpaying undersized, overrate guards), we put Knight on the bench.

I don't think it's expressed enough, but Knight hasn't been any good. Part of his projection as a bench player stems from the fact that he's just not done anything well as a starter. The team may choose to bank on his development because they have no other options, but he wouldn't be starting for ANY other team in the league right now. If we go into next year with Knight as our starting PG or SG, it will be an indictment of our overall talent.

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I still think he needs a bit more time. He has shown flashes, but he does nothing half the time too. I agree that we should take Oladipo, or even Burke where ever we end up in the draft. I especailly think Burke will prove people wrong and have an impact in the NBA. Not even just rose tinted glasses, but he has pretty much everything you need from a star PG.

Its just up to what Dumars sees as more important. He might still think we are ok at PG/ SG and want to go forward regardless. Or Eyeing certain players he wants to pursue with our large amount of money to spend in FA.

jrange378 said:

I still think he needs a bit more time. He has shown flashes, but he does nothing half the time too. I agree that we should take Oladipo, or even Burke where ever we end up in the draft. I especailly think Burke will prove people wrong and have an impact in the NBA. Not even just rose tinted glasses, but he has pretty much everything you need from a star PG.

Its just up to what Dumars sees as more important. He might still think we are ok at PG/ SG and want to go forward regardless. Or Eyeing certain players he wants to pursue with our large amount of money to spend in FA.

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If they draft Oladipo I would be pretty disappointed. That said, there's not a whole lot of premium talent in this draft so the best the Pistons can probably do at that pick is a role player anyway. I guess it might as well be a solid two guard who can play defense.

Maybe they will get lucky and Porter or Bennet will slip to them.

On another note, tanking next year might just be the thing to do with Wiggins in the field. Kid is going to be the next superstar.

jrange378 said:

I still think he needs a bit more time. He has shown flashes, but he does nothing half the time too. I agree that we should take Oladipo, or even Burke where ever we end up in the draft. I especailly think Burke will prove people wrong and have an impact in the NBA. Not even just rose tinted glasses, but he has pretty much everything you need from a star PG.

Its just up to what Dumars sees as more important. He might still think we are ok at PG/ SG and want to go forward regardless. Or Eyeing certain players he wants to pursue with our large amount of money to spend in FA.

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I'm not against keeping Knight on the team, but he can develop on the bench just as easily as the starting lineup. He's had significant minutes for the last two years and shown almost no growth whatsoever. His flashes are so few and far between (it's really not close to half the time) that I think it would be less accurate to say that's what he could be all the time. A whole lot of role players have had big games from time to time. Consider a guy like Jeff Green. He was in the starting lineup 3.5 years with OKC and had a number of really big games. Overall, though, he was a really bad player. In Boston this year he's forced to have a big impact and has again had a number of big games. But then you look at all his games together and you realize, "This guy still isn't very good, he only shows up once a week."

I think if Joe decides we are set at SG, it says more about Joe than about the team. Where we are picking, we have to take the best talent available, regardless of position. Talent drops off so fast in the draft it's crazy. Joe actively choosing a less talented player because of two failed experiments would point to Joe being more interested in loyalty than winning (something many have already accused). Also, we should treat free agency relatively the same way. If there is a to PG/SG/SF available, we should grab him. There is no one on the team worth ignoring a perimeter position for.

tigersofjustice said:

If they draft Oladipo I would be pretty disappointed. That said, there's not a whole lot of premium talent in this draft so the best the Pistons can probably do at that pick is a role player anyway. I guess it might as well be a solid two guard who can play defense.

Maybe they will get lucky and Porter or Bennet will slip to them.

On another note, tanking next year might just be the thing to do with Wiggins in the field. Kid is going to be the next superstar.

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Oladipo is one of the premium talents in the draft. A hyper-athletic lockdown defender who can also hit open shots. Sure, he's not Harden/Kobe/Wade, but in this draft it's hard to say many players are better. I really hope Porter drops, he seems an ideal glue guy. Bennett I am not as high on only because I think he'll have to play PF in the NBA.

Next year is just full of high end talents. Wiggins and Parker both are supposed to be surefire stars. Guys like Julius Randle and Andrew Harrison both are projected to be better than Noel (the presumptive #1 this year). And that's not even counting lottery guys this year that went back to school and should be even better next year (Harris, McGary, Robinson, Smart). The only problem is that I don't see anyway we keep our pick. We only keep our pick if we land in the top 8 next year. Given we barely made top 8 this year with a Drummond injury and ridiculous minute limitations early, I can't see how we do it again next year when lots of teams will be tanking a lot harder (because it's a significantly better draft).

I actually think we don't draft BPA if its C or PF. Drummond and Monroe are the future and you don't use you're lottery on a bench player. BPA PG, SG, SF.

I admittedly don't have the deepest knowledge of all the prospects available to us to pick, I just like Oladipo and Burke for our team since they we're B1G and I got to see them. Knowing everybody else is why Joe D is paid, and his scouts.

jrange378 said:

I actually think we don't draft BPA if its C or PF. Drummond and Monroe are the future and you don't use you're lottery on a bench player. BPA PG, SG, SF.

I admittedly don't have the deepest knowledge of all the prospects available to us to pick, I just like Oladipo and Burke for our team since they we're B1G and I got to see them. Knowing everybody else is why Joe D is paid, and his scouts.

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I could see us passing on someone like Bennett (PF who doesn't play defense) for a slightly lesser talent. But there are really only 2 top tier big men in this draft. If Noel were to magically fall to us, I can't see how we pass him up. At the very least, he would have more trade value when he gets healthy.

everyoneneedsasmil said:

Oladipo is one of the premium talents in the draft. A hyper-athletic lockdown defender who can also hit open shots. Sure, he's not Harden/Kobe/Wade, but in this draft it's hard to say many players are better. I really hope Porter drops, he seems an ideal glue guy. Bennett I am not as high on only because I think he'll have to play PF in the NBA.

Next year is just full of high end talents. Wiggins and Parker both are supposed to be surefire stars. Guys like Julius Randle and Andrew Harrison both are projected to be better than Noel (the presumptive #1 this year). And that's not even counting lottery guys this year that went back to school and should be even better next year (Harris, McGary, Robinson, Smart). The only problem is that I don't see anyway we keep our pick. We only keep our pick if we land in the top 8 next year. Given we barely made top 8 this year with a Drummond injury and ridiculous minute limitations early, I can't see how we do it again next year when lots of teams will be tanking a lot harder (because it's a significantly better draft).

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Wow, didn't know the Pistons were in line to get boned that hard next year if they don't finish low enough. That settles it, they need to intentionally tank. Put Drummond and Monroe on the IR until they have enough losses to fall safely in the bottom 8.