Before I watch, im gonna ask; is this going to make me want to murder him?

Does Hawk realize that teammate Yaz had a 1.040 OPS and a wOBA of .454 in 1967?

"The earth is flat! And no new fangled technology can prove otherwise."

Pitching and defense, pitching and defense. The same mantra over and over again. In 1968, 3 runs was huge. Now, 2013, 45 years later, the game has changed.

On average, an AL team gets almost 3/4 of their wins when they score 5 runs or more. AL teams average .500 ball when neither team scores 5 runs or more. Yet, in those games, teams that averaged to score more runs during the year, had better records in those games.

DET first 20 games after 5 innings, then whether it was a win or not

APR 1 = 3-0 W
APR 3 = 2-0 L **
APR 4 = 2-3 L
APR 5 = 5-3 W
APR 6 = 5-1 W
APR 7 = 0-3 L
APR 9 = 5-2 W
APR 10 = 6-1 L **
APR 11 = 10-1 W
APR 12 = 3-1 L **
APR 13 = 5-1 W
APR 14 = 8-1 W
APR 16 = 3-2 W
APR 17 = 1-0 W
APR 18 = 0-0 L
APR 19 = 0-2 L
APR 20 = 0-9 L
APR 21 = 3-3 L
APR 24 = 7-5 W
APR 25 = 3-2 L **

After 20 games, DET is 10-10. 9-3 when they score 3 or more runs in the first 5 innings. They are 9-9 when they limit opponents to less than 3 runs in the first 5 innings.

Pitching (and or Defense) has limited their opponents in the first 5 inning to more than 3 runs in all but 2 games and they still have a 10-10 record. The offense has scored 3 runs or more in the first 5 innings 12 times.

DET has led in 14 games after 5 innings, 10-4 record (63 runs vs 18 runs)

DET was tied in 2 games after 5 innings, both losses (3 runs vs 3 runs)
DET was behind in 4 games after 5 innings (2 runs vs 17 runs), all losses

In games DET led after 5 innings, the average was 4.5 runs vs 1.3 runs

In games DET didn't lead after 5 innings, the average was 0.8 runs vs 3.3 runs.


So, when DET wins 11-1, was it the pitching or defense? What happens when they lose 0-10?

Keep in mind, DET has yet to win a game when they were tied or behind after 5 innings.


TWW...TWW

C'mon, Rebbiv: "I just want some guys who want to win some ballgames." All them newfangled numbers do is allow pencil-nekked geeks to ruin the game.

Kenny uses Hawk's own 1968 stats as an argument FOR sabermetrics! Hawk does his best impression of stupid on parade. He lauds Joe Madden as one of the best managers in the game. !!!!!!!

1968 = AL AVG 3.4 runs per game

1984 = AL AVG 4.4 runs per game

2012 = AL AVG 4.5 runs per game


In 1968, DET won 103 games. 78-11 (.876) when they scored 4 or more runs accounting for 75.7% of their wins. 25-21 (.543) when neither team scores 4 runs or more.

In 1984, DET won 104 games. 77-11 (.875) when they scored 5 or more runs accounting for 74.0 % of their wins. 27-18 (.600) when neither team scores 5 runs or more.

In 2012, DET won 88 games. 64-12 (.842) when they scored 5 or more runs accounting for 72.7% of their wins. 25-32 (.439) when neither team scores 5 runs or more.

Why the difference? Well, the 2012 didn't consistently score runs. If they had, there would have been more games where they scored 4 runs, 3 runs, etc...thus enabling to increase their chance of winning lower scoring games.


Now, I will point out that it is harder to score 5 runs in the playoffs. So, pitching and difference play a bigger role. However, if the offense cannot generate runs, you are not going far or even winning it all.

Brian Kenny sounds like an angry hippie. Don't get all pissed off because someone doesn't share your belief.

gotime909 said:

Brian Kenny sounds like an angry hippie. Don't get all pissed off because someone doesn't share your belief.

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Sometimes it's just frustrating how some ignorant people will bury their heads in the sand and pretend facts don't exist though, that leads to people getting pissed off.

Galileo, Pythagoras, and sabermetric people all share(d) the same pain.

I get what you're saying, but Kenny has just got out of control with it the last couple years. Almost comes across like a religious fanatic about it.

Here's an intelligent response to the debate. http://sbn.to/Yc6a2k As Hawk was stating his case I kept thinking of Otter in Animal House, without the cleverness.

gotime909 said:

Brian Kenny sounds like an angry hippie. Don't get all pissed off because someone doesn't share your belief.

Click to expand...

When matching wits with someone is like dropping napalm on a thatched hut, it's hard to show mercy.

love the Hawk,him and Manning (Cleveland's Fox sports colorman) are the 2 best,they don't sugarcoat a thing, just call it the way they see it.

Hawk is the biggest fluffer of the home team in the business.

hellifino said:

love the Hawk,him and Manning (Cleveland's Fox sports colorman) are the 2 best,they don't sugarcoat a thing, just call it the way they see it.

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Rick Manning doesn't sugarcoat things like banging a teammates wife.

And the reason Hawk calls things like he see's them are because he can't see shit.

gotime909 said:

I get what you're saying, but Kenny has just got out of control with it the last couple years. Almost comes across like a religious fanatic about it.

Click to expand...

Except in this scenario Hawk would be the religious fanatic, wanted people to believe in the spiritual stat "TWTW". Kenny would be the scientist rebuking him constantly with facts.