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Religion and homosexuality

Michchamp

Michchamp

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 4, 2011
Messages
33,990
I'm aware of the fact that the Bible more or less looks down upon gay relations. Regardless of how you decide to translate/interpret certain vague passages in the Bible, they're at least not in favor of homosexuality.

So I can understand where any given Church/Temple/Mosque might refuse to refuse to officiate or even condone/bless a gay union. Seems to me a little un-Jesus-like to be able to stand there in front of someone and condemn them, but okay. What I'm really interested in though is where the basis for discrimination by lay members of each of those religions come from.

I'm genuinely curious here. Been reading, both on this board and others, Christian people claim that something as innocuous as baking a goddamn cake for a gay couple is "a violation of their religious freedom."

Holding lay individuals to the same standard as clergy doesn't seem to apply in other contexts, e.g. Catholic priests can't get married or have sexual relations, but lay Catholics can. So where in the Bible, or Church doctrine does it say "thou shalt not have anything whatsoever to do with a gay wedding, from working in a power plant that may supply energy to power the DJ's equipment to play Madonna for 6 hours, to baking a cake with two grooms or brides on top of it"???
 
I would not expect you to understand or even try to understand the grave ill being realized by same-sex "marriage" because you do not even believe in God. If you did, you perhaps could begin to mildly acknowledge the opposition. You would know why God is offended.

And if you knew the construct of the Church, you'd realize that the Catholic laity has the same responsibility to live by the Faith that priests are ordained to proclaim.
 
byco42 said:
I would not expect you to understand or even try to understand the grave ill being realized by same-sex "marriage" because you do not even believe in God. If you did, you perhaps could begin to mildly acknowledge the opposition. You would know why God is offended.

And if you knew the construct of the Church, you'd realize that the Catholic laity has the same responsibility to live by the Faith that priests are ordained to proclaim.
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Fine. But I'm asking what the exact passage(s) or tenets of the church that give the basis for this.

I think you also have to presume homosexuality is a choice, no? I don't believe it is, so have always had a problem with it being considered a sin
 
byco42 said:
You would know why God is offended.
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If god, you know the omnipotent power that rules everything that ever was or will be, was so offended, why didn't he simply change a couple justices minds for them?
 
Thumb said:
If god, you know the omnipotent power that rules everything that ever was or will be, was so offended, why didn't he simply change a couple justices minds for them?
Click to expand...

Free will.
 
Thumb said:
If god, you know the omnipotent power that rules everything that ever was or will be, was so offended, why didn't he simply change a couple justices minds for them?
Click to expand...

makes sense, but we cannot presume to know the mind of the Christian god, just what he tells Pat Robertson, Rick Santorum, everyone at Fox News, James Dobson, every Catholic Pope, Ted Haggard, and Ted Nugent.
 
I just don't understand the ultimate goal of opposing same-sex marriage. Which brings up a lot of questions from me...

- Why does it matter if same-sex couples can get married, isn't it left up to the Christian God to ultimately judge them?

- Do Christians get rewarded in some way for opposing same-sex marriage? or rather punished for not opposing same-sex marriage?

- Is there some sort of belief that opposing same-sex marriage will result in less homosexual activity? If so, how does one come to this conclusion?

- Is the goal to make people feel wrong and ashamed for taking part in same-sex marriages, an act that does not harm anyone? How is that humane?

- Do Christians believe that all homosexuals chose their lifestyle for the purpose of defying the Christian God? What about homosexual Christians? What about homosexuals who have never heard of the Christian God?

- How does one convince another that who they find sexually attractive is wrong?

Not that anyone here is guilty, but I just see a lot of shaming and hatred coming from both sides over this issue, all because of a book. It's not how I would go about things and I certainly don't think fellow humans should be treating each other like this. It's sad that there is such a divide here. As someone with a "live and let live" philosophy, this looks like a lot of wasted effort.
 
grandy said:
I just don't understand the ultimate goal of opposing same-sex marriage. Which brings up a lot of questions from me...

- Why does it matter if same-sex couples can get married, isn't it left up to the Christian God to ultimately judge them?

- Do Christians get rewarded in some way for opposing same-sex marriage? or rather punished for not opposing same-sex marriage?

- Is there some sort of belief that opposing same-sex marriage will result in less homosexual activity? If so, how does one come to this conclusion?

- Is the goal to make people feel wrong and ashamed for taking part in same-sex marriages, an act that does not harm anyone? How is that humane?

- Do Christians believe that all homosexuals chose their lifestyle for the purpose of defying the Christian God? What about homosexual Christians? What about homosexuals who have never heard of the Christian God?

- How does one convince another that who they find sexually attractive is wrong?

Not that anyone here is guilty, but I just see a lot of shaming and hatred coming from both sides over this issue, all because of a book. It's not how I would go about things and I certainly don't think fellow humans should be treating each other like this. It's sad that there is such a divide here. As someone with a "live and let live" philosophy, this looks like a lot of wasted effort.
Click to expand...

That is the more liberal argument that you are making.

I don't know if there are many millions of homosexual and faithful Christians, but there are some churches who gladly and graciously accept as members, those who have come out of the closet, as well as those who have always been openly gay.

There are also, of course, the Log Cabin Republicans who are a vocal group of LGBTs who are likely more fiscally conservative than social, despite knowing damn well how the vast majority of their fellow Republicans treat them publicly and privately, and legislate against them.
 
byco42 said:
Free will.
Click to expand...


Exactly.

If we have free will, and he gave us that ability, he can't get too mad when we exercise it.

And he's damn sure not going to be upset at people who have nothing at all to do with same sex marriage other than bitching about their freedoms being trampled by not allowing them to continue to trample the freedoms someone else.
 
Thumb said:
Exactly.

If we have free will, and he gave us that ability, he can't get too mad when we exercise it.

And he's damn sure not going to be upset at people who have nothing at all to do with same sex marriage other than bitching about their freedoms being trampled by not allowing them to continue to trample the freedoms someone else.
Click to expand...

Except that Marriage was kind of His idea. Free will does not mean we are free to act any way we please. It means we are free to accept or reject God and we then have to deal with the outcome of that.

There is a direct correlation between same-sex marriage and religious freedom and this is only the beginning.
 
Holy fuck, when will you thumpers realize marriage has existed since waaaaayyyy before the bible was written? It was not your god's idea. Marriage has existed in many forms throughout history and a lot of marriages don't even involve a god. Get over yourself.
 
Hey Byco! Can't say I'm a Believer but I feel your pain, if the activism of the court causes you any. But I would never mock, as others do. Keep your faith. The world needs it and is better off for it.
 
Last edited:
grandy said:
I just don't understand the ultimate goal of opposing same-sex marriage. Which brings up a lot of questions from me...

- Why does it matter if same-sex couples can get married, isn't it left up to the Christian God to ultimately judge them?

- Do Christians get rewarded in some way for opposing same-sex marriage? or rather punished for not opposing same-sex marriage?

- Is there some sort of belief that opposing same-sex marriage will result in less homosexual activity? If so, how does one come to this conclusion?

- Is the goal to make people feel wrong and ashamed for taking part in same-sex marriages, an act that does not harm anyone? How is that humane?

- Do Christians believe that all homosexuals chose their lifestyle for the purpose of defying the Christian God? What about homosexual Christians? What about homosexuals who have never heard of the Christian God?

- How does one convince another that who they find sexually attractive is wrong?

Not that anyone here is guilty, but I just see a lot of shaming and hatred coming from both sides over this issue, all because of a book. It's not how I would go about things and I certainly don't think fellow humans should be treating each other like this. It's sad that there is such a divide here. As someone with a "live and let live" philosophy, this looks like a lot of wasted effort.
Click to expand...

Simple, the same way people are against guns, or against the NE Patriots. Everyone has an opinion about everything. Not all Christians are against gay marriages just like all Christians aren't against birth control or all are pro choice.

It does come down to God has the ultimate say.
 
Monster said:
Holy fuck, when will you thumpers realize marriage has existed since waaaaayyyy before the bible was written? It was not your god's idea. Marriage has existed in many forms throughout history and a lot of marriages don't even involve a god. Get over yourself.
Click to expand...

I sense your micro-aggression. God made marriage a Sacrament. One of the seven in the Church.
 
So, looks like the answer to my question is "cause that's the way god made it."
 
So now some county clerks are refusing to issue marriage license applications to same sex couples in Texas...so we'll see what happens.
 
byco42 said:
I sense your micro-aggression. God made marriage a Sacrament. One of the seven in the Church.
Click to expand...

But nobody is telling the churches that they have to marry gay people!!!!! If you want someone to lecture about this, do it with the churches that are marrying gay people!

The state must grant a license to get married and perform the ceremony if necessary. That encroaches on no religious liberty and from what I've heard, they are giving exemptions to men and women with strong religious convictions that don't want to perform the ceremony...within reason of course.
 
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