Really good to hear how receptive he is to coaching. We knew he was raw coming in, and I've said I don't expect a whole lot for the first couple years. So long as he keeps plugging away in the gym, he won't be a bust. He doesn't have stone hands or T-Rex arms, potentially limiting his ceiling. He isn't unathletic or awkward moving around the court.

Everything he needs to be great he already has or can be learned. If he really wants to learn and be great, he will be.

everyoneneedsasmil said:

Really good to hear how receptive he is to coaching. We knew he was raw coming in, and I've said I don't expect a whole lot for the first couple years. So long as he keeps plugging away in the gym, he won't be a bust. He doesn't have stone hands or T-Rex arms, potentially limiting his ceiling. He isn't unathletic or awkward moving around the court.

Everything he needs to be great he already has or can be learned. If he really wants to learn and be great, he will be.

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I was just gonna say this part of the article...

"But that doesn't mean Drummond is slow. In fact, the Pistons have noticed they usually don't have to tell him things twice. He has been receptive and coachable -- there's just a lot of coaching to do. "

has to be extremely encouraging to Pistons fans.

I believe this kid has as much potential as anyone we have drafted maybe since Hill. We just need to see how he develops. I do like what I am hearing so far but only time will tell how good he will be.

I'll admit it's going to be hard being patient. Knowing what he is capable of is always going to color expectations to some degree. That said, I think his summer league numbers could be close to his rookie year numbers. Fewer minutes most likely (maybe 20 per game), but around 7 points and 6 rebounds wouldn't be a bad start.

everyoneneedsasmil said:

I'll admit it's going to be hard being patient. Knowing what he is capable of is always going to color expectations to some degree. That said, I think his summer league numbers could be close to his rookie year numbers. Fewer minutes most likely (maybe 20 per game), but around 7 points and 6 rebounds wouldn't be a bad start.

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Last year Jason Maxiel averaged almost 23 minutes a game. If Drummond can play defense and rebound I see him playing 25-30 a game. The Pistons need him to average 9 points and 8 boards. My biggest concern about this team going forward is scoring....where are they going to get their points?

tomdalton22 said:

Last year Jason Maxiel averaged almost 23 minutes a game. If Drummond can play defense and rebound I see him playing 25-30 a game. The Pistons need him to average 9 points and 8 boards. My biggest concern about this team going forward is scoring....where are they going to get their points?

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I think 25-30 is unreasonable. Don't forget Monroe averaged less than 20 mpg for the first two months of his career, and he was much further along as a player than Drummond. The other issue is minute scarcity. Monroe is still going to need to be our primary center, which is where all Drummond's minutes should come. Big Ben averaged 22 and 15 minutes per game the last two years. That is probably the range we will see for Drummond.

As great as it would be to play Monroe-Drummond all the time, it's unrealistic. Drummond is not ready to play big minutes against NBA players, at least not until the second half of the year. While he may be our future, Frank and Dumars can't afford to tank, their jobs have to be getting pretty warm. Drummond does not give a superior chance at winning right now, and that's going to limit his minutes.

everyoneneedsasmil said:

I think 25-30 is unreasonable. Don't forget Monroe averaged less than 20 mpg for the first two months of his career, and he was much further along as a player than Drummond. The other issue is minute scarcity. Monroe is still going to need to be our primary center, which is where all Drummond's minutes should come. Big Ben averaged 22 and 15 minutes per game the last two years. That is probably the range we will see for Drummond.

As great as it would be to play Monroe-Drummond all the time, it's unrealistic. Drummond is not ready to play big minutes against NBA players, at least not until the second half of the year. While he may be our future, Frank and Dumars can't afford to tank, their jobs have to be getting pretty warm. Drummond does not give a superior chance at winning right now, and that's going to limit his minutes.

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Ben doesn't deserve any minutes....he sucks. If he can't take some of Max's minutes I will be disapointed. There shouldn't be ANY minute scarcity at the C and PF position....the only player that deserves ANY playing time is Monroe. The rest of the roster at those two spots are garbage.

tomdalton22 said:

Ben doesn't deserve any minutes....he sucks. If he can't take some of Max's minutes I will be disapointed. There shouldn't be ANY minute scarcity at the C and PF position....the only player that deserves ANY playing time is Monroe. The rest of the roster at those two spots are garbage.

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I get where you're coming from. I agree that Ben, CV, and Maxiell aren't good. I think Jonas deserves minutes though, and because we foolishly kept Prince, Jonas will have to play a good deal at the 4. However, I don't think you should confuse talent with skill right now.

Drummond has never played an NBA game, is incredibly raw, and we are not running our real system in summer league. Right now, he is not a better player than Big Ben. You can say Ben sucks, but that's a comparative analysis. MOST rookies suck compared to veterans. Andrew Bynum sucked his rookie and sophomore years. Dwight was a 10 and 10 guys his rookie years. I know ideally Drummond comes and in makes Ben/CV/Maxiell obsolete, but that's not who he is right now. He needs a lot of work just to be a decent bench player who knows where to be defensively and doesn't get in the way offensively.

From a developmental standpoint, I hope he gets as many minutes as possible. But from a wins standpoint, more minutes will be counterproductive early.

everyoneneedsasmil said:

I get where you're coming from. I agree that Ben, CV, and Maxiell aren't good. I think Jonas deserves minutes though, and because we foolishly kept Prince, Jonas will have to play a good deal at the 4. However, I don't think you should confuse talent with skill right now.

Drummond has never played an NBA game, is incredibly raw, and we are not running our real system in summer league. Right now, he is not a better player than Big Ben. You can say Ben sucks, but that's a comparative analysis. MOST rookies suck compared to veterans. Andrew Bynum sucked his rookie and sophomore years. Dwight was a 10 and 10 guys his rookie years. I know ideally Drummond comes and in makes Ben/CV/Maxiell obsolete, but that's not who he is right now. He needs a lot of work just to be a decent bench player who knows where to be defensively and doesn't get in the way offensively.

From a developmental standpoint, I hope he gets as many minutes as possible. But from a wins standpoint, more minutes will be counterproductive early.

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He is raw but the way I look at it is they aren't going to ask him to do much offensively. Ben and Max don't bring anything. If he can play D I would rather have him out there learning 20-25 minutes a game even if it means a few more losses. This team isn't going anywhere next season anyway.

Drummond may find himself in foul trouble a lot early in his career..although he was doing a good job in the summer league last I saw.

tomdalton22 said:

He is raw but the way I look at it is they aren't going to ask him to do much offensively. Ben and Max don't bring anything. If he can play D I would rather have him out there learning 20-25 minutes a game even if it means a few more losses. This team isn't going anywhere next season anyway.

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The team hasn't been going anywhere the last two seasons, and it's continued to take a while for our young guys to get minutes. Also, rookies rarely come in and play great defense. They are trying to stymie opponents that are considerably bigger, faster, and more athletic than they have faced in the past. Defensive systems are different with the 3-second rule. UConn especially is different because it is built around keeping a rim protector under the basket all the time. Rotations and help defense are a lot more important in the NBA, and those are the things that need to be taught most often.

Drummond certainly seems more natural defensively. He has good timing and decent footwork. But was exposed as overeager and with low awareness just in the summer league. Those are very coachable issues, but also ones that take a lot of practice and game experience to get down. There is a reason that defensive aptitude can is measurably increased for nearly all players the longer they are in the league.

This just goes to the idea of patience. Drummond has all the physical tools, yes. He sounds coachable. But we have to accept where he is starting. He is a rookie; even the best rookies often struggle early and take a couple years to develop. He is raw even by college standards. Even if he is willing and able to learn, he's basically starting at zero. He's been able to do what he did in high school and college completely on talent, and he just has way too much to learn to expect much right away. I would love to have him prove me wrong here, but realistically we should expect low minutes and limited production.

beez said:

Drummond may find himself in foul trouble a lot early in his career..although he was doing a good job in the summer league last I saw.

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Yeah, I was stunned that he kept his fouls down in summer league. Seems like every other extremely young, big ends up with a couple games with 8 or so fouls.

Maybe it's a combonation of me being a little higher on Drummond than most and my dislike for every other big on the Pistons besides Monroe. Personally, I would prefer that Drummond play a lot of minutes and learn on the job even if it may cost them a few wins. There isn't a lot of practice time in the NBA and I don't think you can learn anything sitting on the bench.

tomdalton22 said:

Maybe it's a combonation of me being a little higher on Drummond than most and my dislike for every other big on the Pistons besides Monroe. Personally, I would prefer that Drummond play a lot of minutes and learn on the job even if it may cost them a few wins. There isn't a lot of practice time in the NBA and I don't think you can learn anything sitting on the bench.

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I have been saying this for the last two years. I thought Monroe should have been starting from day 1, same with Knight. I thought we should have been pushing veterans out of the way to give our rookies more minutes. And from a pure developmental standpoint, that's probably what we should do here. But, Dumars and Frank may not have the luxury of being around when the development turns the team into a contender.

Honestly I'm not sure Dumars should still have a job right now. He's been lucky in the draft (honestly I can't see anyone passing up Monroe-Knight-Drummond where they fell), and terrible everywhere else. At this point I expect any trades or contracts he negotiates will be bad for the team. Frank seems like a good coach and a smart guy, but he doesn't seem to be making an impact on the roster. We aren't overachieving with our talent, and the system we run is still painful to watch and ineffective with our personnel. But they ARE still here, and they don't want to be fired. They have to play for wins, because the future of their contracts is now.

To be fair to Frank, a lockout season isn't the best time to take over as a coach, especially breaking in a rookie PG and with the roster limitations he was working with. The offense was definitely brutal at times, but their overall improvement in the second half of the season was pretty substantial (relatively speaking). It seemed like players were buying in, at least effort wise. No small feat given the recent history of the team in that regard and the dreadful start they got out to.

But yeah, after years of defending Dumars, the last few years have soured me. The ownership issue may very well be legit, and that's probably the only reason he still deserves a job, but that's no excuse for a move like the AI debacle and the FA whiff in 2009.

Hey Smil...I'm curious as to what your thoughts were just prior to the 2003 draft. What you thought their biggest need was and who you wanted them to draft.

deathroh said:

To be fair to Frank, a lockout season isn't the best time to take over as a coach, especially breaking in a rookie PG and with the roster limitations he was working with. The offense was definitely brutal at times, but their overall improvement in the second half of the season was pretty substantial (relatively speaking). It seemed like players were buying in, at least effort wise. No small feat given the recent history of the team in that regard and the dreadful start they got out to.

But yeah, after years of defending Dumars, the last few years have soured me. The ownership issue may very well be legit, and that's probably the only reason he still deserves a job, but that's no excuse for a move like the AI debacle and the FA whiff in 2009.

Hey Smil...I'm curious as to what your thoughts were just prior to the 2003 draft. What you thought their biggest need was and who you wanted them to draft.

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I'll admit I wasn't as interested in the draft back then, especially since I had forgotten about the Memphis pick until after the season. At the time I thought we needed a big man to pair with Ben or an upgrade on Prince. At the time I thought Carmelo was the obvious 2nd best player in the draft and that we would take him. I didn't expect Darko to be a bust, but I didn't think he was really in the running. At the time Darko was this super skilled center who was aggressive and could score from anywhere. I wasn't keen on a jump shooting big man (this opinion has changed over time, I'm fine with a shooting big as long as he stays efficient and isn't a liability on defense), and probably didn't know a whole lot about Darko outside the confusing and conflicting hyperbole surrounding him.

If I could redo the draft, I would probably take Bosh. Wade is the better player, but Bosh is a perfect fit between Ben-Tay, and could have been a much better top option as a scorer. Rasheed has also been highly overrated from his time with us. He was a great defender, but actually a terrible scorer because he always settled for bad shots despite being a very middling shooter overall. At the time I would have taken Melo - who isn't a bust, but may have been a very frustrating Piston given his disregard for playing defense.

everyoneneedsasmil said:

I'll admit I wasn't as interested in the draft back then, especially since I had forgotten about the Memphis pick until after the season. At the time I thought we needed a big man to pair with Ben or an upgrade on Prince. At the time I thought Carmelo was the obvious 2nd best player in the draft and that we would take him. I didn't expect Darko to be a bust, but I didn't think he was really in the running. At the time Darko was this super skilled center who was aggressive and could score from anywhere. I wasn't keen on a jump shooting big man (this opinion has changed over time, I'm fine with a shooting big as long as he stays efficient and isn't a liability on defense), and probably didn't know a whole lot about Darko outside the confusing and conflicting hyperbole surrounding him.

If I could redo the draft, I would probably take Bosh. Wade is the better player, but Bosh is a perfect fit between Ben-Tay, and could have been a much better top option as a scorer. Rasheed has also been highly overrated from his time with us. He was a great defender, but actually a terrible scorer because he always settled for bad shots despite being a very middling shooter overall. At the time I would have taken Melo - who isn't a bust, but may have been a very frustrating Piston given his disregard for playing defense.

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If the Pistons took Melo they probably never win a title. He is a cancer.

tomdalton22 said:

If the Pistons took Melo they probably never win a title. He is a cancer.

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Tough to say. Prior to his Lin comment, he's never been considered a bad person in the locker room. Also, it wouldn't have stopped us from trading for Rasheed, who improved our interior defense. As a rookie, given we already had Tay, Carmelo probably would have taken over the 6th man role early. Given how good our defense was overall, and how bad our offense was, it's not unreasonable to think he could have been a net positive.

Does our offense completely bog down with him the way it did against San Antonio the next year, or Cleveland the year after, or Miami the year after? Is our defense really hurt that much with Ben erasing mistakes and everyone else playing solid D on their man? And for that matter, does Melo remain the same defense-averse player he is now in Detroit's culture (it's not like he's ever really been asked to play defense much in his career)?

There are a lot of what-ifs. As I said, in hindsight I probably take Bosh. He fills Rasheed's role (which helped us win a championship), but better. He develops into a true #1 scorer on our team and is actually a good defender. His overall impact is more on offense (I seriously can't get over how bad Rasheed was), but that's fine.

everyoneneedsasmil said:

Tough to say. Prior to his Lin comment, he's never been considered a bad person in the locker room. Also, it wouldn't have stopped us from trading for Rasheed, who improved our interior defense. As a rookie, given we already had Tay, Carmelo probably would have taken over the 6th man role early. Given how good our defense was overall, and how bad our offense was, it's not unreasonable to think he could have been a net positive.

Does our offense completely bog down with him the way it did against San Antonio the next year, or Cleveland the year after, or Miami the year after? Is our defense really hurt that much with Ben erasing mistakes and everyone else playing solid D on their man? And for that matter, does Melo remain the same defense-averse player he is now in Detroit's culture (it's not like he's ever really been asked to play defense much in his career)?

There are a lot of what-ifs. As I said, in hindsight I probably take Bosh. He fills Rasheed's role (which helped us win a championship), but better. He develops into a true #1 scorer on our team and is actually a good defender. His overall impact is more on offense (I seriously can't get over how bad Rasheed was), but that's fine.

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I haaaate Melo's game (now) but I think it would have been different if he were a Piston...as a 6th man on a team with vets he may have evolved into more of a move without the ball kind of guy etc...in Denver he was always the man, always got the ball and could iso whenever he wanted. I think he would have been great for Detroit, either him or Wade. You're right about Bosh, he would have given the low post a huge scoring threat.