Welcome to Detroit Sports Forum!

By joining our community, you'll be able to connect with fellow fans that live and breathe Detroit sports just like you!

Get Started
  • If you are no longer able to access your account since our recent switch from vBulletin to XenForo, you may need to reset your password via email. If you no longer have access to the email attached to your account, please fill out our contact form and we will assist you ASAP. Thanks for your continued support of DSF.

Public verses Private schools

biggunsbob

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Messages
95,246
I will be interested to see the breakdown in the football finals..Looks like a lot of the private schools are moving on.. I have been against public and private playing each other in playoffs for many years because of the unfair advantage private schools have over public schools.. Just my opinion.
 
Last edited:
I will be interested to see the breakdown in the football finals..Looks like a lot of the private schools are moving on.. I have been against public and private playing each other in playoffs for many years because of the unfair advantage private schools have over public schools.. Just my opinion.

Just in football? Or all sports?
 
Just in football? Or all sports?


Football and Basketball for sure. But it may as well be all if its one... Just my opinion but all private schools have an unfair advantage in the area they can pull kids in from.. Which is everywhere outside a public schools district..
 
I think if my math is correct in the 8 divisions is breaks down with 8 public school teams and 8 private school teams.
D-3 and D-4 are a all private school battle. While D-6 and D-8 all four teams are public....
D-1,2,5 and 7 pit public verses private school games... We shall see.
 
Football and Basketball for sure. But it may as well be all if its one... Just my opinion but all private schools have an unfair advantage in the area they can pull kids in from.. Which is everywhere outside a public schools district..

Not basketball. That I know. Some private schools have successfully drawn great athletes; some (most, actually) not.
 
Not basketball. That I know. Some private schools have successfully drawn great athletes; some (most, actually) not.


Your probably right it seems like they pull more for football then basketball..
 
Your probably right it seems like they pull more for football then basketball..

I also think it matters more in football because with 11 athletes on the field versus 5, playing smart and playing well as a team matters more than raw talent.

I'll go out on a limb here and say in my experience, private school kids are a lot more disciplined than public school ones. hence the results on the football field.

the only private school that really has an unfair advantage in basketball is Country Day... which... you start to scratch your head when really talented basketball players from Detroit are going to a school in the burbs with higher tuition than pretty much every college in the state...
 
This issue is still in the pipeline as of last year ... here's some information on it.
_______________________________________________________

Dueling High School showcases spark public-private controversy

By (ME)

Novi Varsity hockey head coach Todd Krygier has these black-coal eyes that glow with intensity when he gets passionate over a topic.

At the forefront of his mind presently is the initiative to institute a wholesale reform in the playoff structure of all Michigan High School Athletic Association programs, from basketball to bowling.

It’s a topic that he certainly wanted to get on the table immediately.

When asked about the logistics involved in organizing the inaugural Michigan Public High School Hockey 2011 Invitational Showcase, held from Feb. 9-12 at Chelsea’s Arctic Coliseum, he quickly addressed the issues that caused its staging on the very same weekend as the Michigan Interscholastic Hockey League Showcase held in Trenton.

“We organized some core coaches into a steering committee,” said Krygier. “They contacted more and more coaches to see if there was interest and support for the issues that we have.”

Those issues are displayed prominently on mphsh.com for anyone to review.

Krygier and his fellow coaches claim that the figurative and literal playing fields upon which High-School athletes compete in the state of Michigan is unfairly slanted to favor private school athletic programs.

“Hockey is the catalyst that has fueled the issue,” said Krygier. “But hockey is one small part of the picture. The real issue is that there is a private school business model and a public school business model. The public schools are schools of accommodation. Private schools are entrepreneurial enterprises, and many build their programs around sports and good academics.”

Krygier and other public school hockey coaches believe that MSHAA rules and regulations put the public schools at a disadvantage.

“The reality is that there are different rules between private and public schools,” said Chelsea head coach Don Wright. “We look at it from the standpoint that there should be different state championships for public and private schools.”

“Private schools are beating public schools on a consistent basis in the state playoffs, and it allows the private schools to say that they are better,” said Krygier. “We’re not talking about a competitive balance here.”

There’s a case to be made in some sports, and within some divisions, but not in others. In regards to hockey, private programs have captured nine of the last 11 Division 1 titles. Novi Catholic Central has seven of those nine. In Division 3, it’s the same ratio - nine of 11, with Cranbrook owning six. In Division 2, however, 10 of the last 11 titles have been won by public programs, with Trenton capturing five.

Brother Rice has won every Division 1 lacrosse state title since 2005, and private schools have won three of six in that same time frame in Division 2.

However, in football, private programs have won 4 of the last 12 state championships in Division 1. In Division 2, it’s one of the last 12. And in Division 3, no private school has won a state championship since the 1999 restructuring that divided football into eight playoff divisions.

In basketball, the last private school to win a Class A state championship was Detroit Catholic Central in 1976. In Class B, the last four championships have been captured by private schools. In Class C, private schools have won four of the last 11. In Class D, it’s six of the last 11.

Finally, baseball. Private schools have won a total 15 of 52 championships awarded across all four divisions since 1998.

Still, in light of this mixed evidence, several hockey programs with a long history of participation in the MIHL showcase opted to participate in the Michigan Public High School Hockey 2011 Invitational Showcase - namely Novi, Brighton, Farmington, Howell and Clarkston - to protest the perceived inequity across all sports and to support the proposed reform of separating public and private schools come playoff time.

Not all public school coaches agree with the tactics used to promote the playoff reform.

“There is a process by which things can change at the High-School level,” said Trenton head coach Mike Turner, like starting with going though the Coach’s Association. “There were 36 schools in last years MIHL Showcase, and 27 of them were public programs.”

That includes Marquette, which participated in both the Public and the MIHL Showcases.

“My opinion was to have the (Public Showcase) on a different weekend,” said Marquette head coach Joe Papin, “and not to interfere with the (MIHL) Showcase. I understand the argument completely, and we know what its like to beat a private school for a state championship. But we know there are inequalities, and that’s what the Public Showcase is trying to state.”

Some disagree with the whole premise of inequality.

“There’s no validity to their argument,” said Novi Catholic Central head coach Todd Johnson. “That private schools have had an unfair advantage over the public schools across all sports has been an argument across all 50 states and across all sports that the National Federation (of State High School Associations) sponsors.”

“It’s an ongoing argument,” said Turner. “You can go back 50 years to when I was playing hockey in Detroit.”

To Johnson, and to other officials of the MIHL Showcase, targeting the same weekend to stage the Public Showcase only weakens the institution of High-School hockey in the state of Michigan.

“The one thing we’ve always supported is a ‘United We Stand’ approach. We all have competition for players from the Travel ranks. We were working together for a while to promote High School hockey,” said Johnson. “Even though we’re not all pulling in the same direction now, we don’t want them to fail. We told them, ‘Have your Public Showcase; we’ll support you. We’ll drive scouts to your event. Just don’t have it on the same weekend.’ Obviously, they had intent to keep it on the same weekend for a reason.”

Krygier and the steering committee has no plans to change the weekend of next year’s Public Showcase until the reform they are championing transpires. The gears are turning, and not slowly.

“Jack Roberts (president of the MSHAA) has heard a presentation delivered by the athletic directors from the KLAA (Kensington Lakes Activities Association) and they informed him that they will be moving forward, with or without him.”

The proposal will also be heard at the Athletic Directors’ State Convention in March, with the ultimate goal of a formal presentation to the MHSAA.

“I’m also suggesting that if the MHSAA is not going to move to separation in state playoffs, then public-school programs should no longer schedule private-school programs in the regular season,” said Krygier. “I’m going to promote that until there is change. Things are really moving behind the scenes.”

That includes public schools separating from the MSHAA, according to Krygier, if that organization does not comply to these proposed reforms.

“There are plans in progress right now, maybe a couple years away,” said Krygier. “We believe that we can make our programs even more attractive than the private school programs if we did separate from the MSHAA.”

As for the cadre of public school hockey coaches who were MIHL Showcase regulars and separated to build their own event, Johnson said:

“We’re not waiting for them, I can tell you that. We’re moving forward, and we’re going to get better every year."
 
Last edited:
Novi Varsity hockey head coach Todd Krygier sounds like an Excuse Maker.
 
But they do have an unfair advantage though. When you can recruit all over how can a public school compete. And don't forget the kids who are in a public story district go play elsewhere, private school, because he changes his address or lives with an Aunt during the season.

Though I can't blame the kids, more exposure on a private school and a better chance for a scholarship. If anyone is old enough and remembers Mark Messner? He lived in Hartland but didn't play HS ball there. If he stayed in Hartland, he might have not gotten the scholarship or at least less likely.
 
As for hockey, the kids who want to play at a next level can for the most part. You don't need to change an address to attend a private school. They don't care where you live. The exposure and scholarship angle is a function of the history of the program in providing players, not so much whether public or private. Farmington Harrison is a football machine. It's also a matter of population concentration, too. When I was a kid, Royal Oak was a hotbed of baseball talent, along with much of SE Michigan. Not anymore.
 
Last edited:
At Brother Rice, we used to say our "recruiting" was holding an open house every fall for potential applicants. that was it.

I don't doubt that some schools recruit, but we didn't.

kids went to Rice because they wanted to play for Al Fracassa. The success bred more success. and it's not like we had more talent... schools like Cass Tech have a lot more. Rice never sends THAT many kids to D-1 football programs, they just play well as a team. public schools don't have the same sort of discipline.

as far as lacrosse goes, I attribute our success in that regard to the abundance of rich pricks that attended the school. it seems to be a rich prick kinda sport. Seaholm and Cranbrook were also very good.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You can get financial aid for private schools. And if you can play, they're find a way to get you that financial aid. Its basically a scholarship. The have a distinct advantage.
 
You can get financial aid for private schools. And if you can play, they're find a way to get you that financial aid. Its basically a scholarship. The have a distinct advantage.

I don't doubt that happens, but I don't think it's very common, and I don't think that explains the disparity between football/lacrosse titles for private schools, and basketball titles for public schools.
 
I'm more referring to football. When I went to HS, graduated in '83, Lacrosse was not very popular. So I don't know about that.
 
Truly talented HS Hockey kids go and play Compuware, etc and leave HS altogether, no..?
 
I haven't lived in TC in 20yrs and can't really speak to the issue.

When I was living there you could go to High School at Traverse City Senior High School (public) or St. Francis High School (Private/Catholic).

Usually when a kid had behavioral issues at the public school, the parents would send them to the smaller private school. The same was the case with athletics if a kid was cut from a TCHS team (being the largest HS in the state at the time) and the parent enrolled them at St Francis so they could play sports.

The truly talented TCHS Hockey players went and played "downstate" or on travel teams.

And in 1988 when I was a Sophomore, TCHS beat DCC for the 5A State Title. One kid from my class - Jeff Herr - moved to Detroit and wound up at Brother Rice. We used to smoke them in Debate.
 
At Brother Rice, we used to say our "recruiting" was holding an open house every fall for potential applicants. that was it.

I don't doubt that some schools recruit, but we didn't.

kids went to Rice because they wanted to play for Al Fracassa. The success bred more success. and it's not like we had more talent... schools like Cass Tech have a lot more. Rice never sends THAT many kids to D-1 football programs, they just play well as a team. public schools don't have the same sort of discipline.

as far as lacrosse goes, I attribute our success in that regard to the abundance of rich pricks that attended the school. it seems to be a rich prick kinda sport. Seaholm and Cranbrook were also very good.

I have seen plenty of Public schools that have just as much discipline as private school teams.. It does go both ways.. And the argument is really weak about playing for a particular coach.. If a kid is good enough BBR will find a way to get him in and you can bank on that. The real problem and the only problem is private schools can get a player from anywhere and public schools cannot and that in the end is a unfair advantage. The stats that Byco posted actually make me feel better as I thought Private schools had many more titles then that. I do agree with you about Lacrosse.. it seems like a ultra rich kid sport. But again if you are good enough a private school will find a way to get you in if you are not rich. Again I do not say i want a total ban on private and public schools from playing each other.

But you tell me if it is fair some years when a team like Muskegon Catholic Central a school of only 181 gets to play in D-8 in the playoffs but just about all season they are playing schools with 5x that many kids and beating them. (9-4 this season).
Harbor Beach just beat them last week in the Semi-finals so yeah for the public school teams but MCC has been in 4 finals since 2000 winning 3 championships playing schools that are just a tad bigger then them in the finals with way better athletes that are more then not given scholarships. Now to be fair i do think some Public Schools have done some weird things with players... East Grand Rapids comes to mind. You cannot tell me that land lock Public school area can produce that many titles.. I am just not buying it. I guess the relatives addresses do work...LOL And didn't Inkster do some crazy stuff? Great debate though.. Thanks for the great impute!!!!
 
Back
Top