Or we could just hand out 4-5 more ridiculous contracts and contend.

With Ausmus.

And a shady BP

Definition of insanity...

paultigerfan68 said:

I agree with you about Castellanos, but I don't know if they would resign Cespedes. Gordon Would be a good sign. It appears that KC will decline his option making him a free agent.

Click to expand...

They don't have the luxury of paying a corner outfielder a 100+ million dollar contact when they have the worst pitching in baseball and limiting resources to put into improving it

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Rebbiv said:

McCann is being over hyped by the media.

2015 Away
.247 BAVG .277 OBP .332 SLG .609 OPS

2015 2nd Half
.250 BAVG .274 OBP .346 SLG .620 OPS

His Away and 2nd half split are more inline with his minor league numbers. Where his offense got a boost in 2015, was the unsustainable (.386 BABIP) against LHP. He cannot frame a pitch, call a good game or has issues with setting up too early. So what if he didn't commit an error, neither did Avila or Holaday. How does a catcher get an error? Well, generally, chances are for the third strike in a strikeout and when throwing out baseball stealers. There were 128 errors by AL Catchers in 2015, 90 (70.3%) while making a throw. DET catchers only had 77 assist in 2015. 77 chances as a team to commit a throwing error. And finally is the caught stealing...after starting the season with 52.0 CS% (June 28th), McCann was 34.1% after that, barely above league average. What statistic or peripheral suggests McCann got better as the season went on or that he will be better in 2016? There is none.

Click to expand...

McCann is the most overrated player in Detroit since Inge. There I said it.

Agree.

Whoever replaced Avila was going to be the most overrated player in Detroit since Inge. The hate for that guy by many had reached levels I hadn't seen in years.

In my opinion the best thing the Tigers could do is follow the Red Sox blue print from a couple of years ago. This team has so many holes to fill with an already high payroll.

I'd target veteran B list free agents and sign then to one and two year deals. I don't think we can target any top ten guy, just have to get lucky. Worked for Boston when they picked up Dempster, Uehara, Victorino, Napoli, Drew, Gomes, Ross, and Carp. Who would have thought that crew would have a huge part in a world series? Just have to get lucky

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

As long as Mr.I is alive Tigers will be in a win now mode. Reloaded will take money, the new 7.99 pizza is on the way. Watch for it.

This team had the worst farm system of all MLB clubs. How does spending more money help that?

The issue will be, when there are injuries, and all teams have them, we DO NOT have replacement level players in the high minors (AAA/AA). Add to the fact that we have 3 players (Castellanos, Gose and McCann) that are in the bottom third for their position. We aren't sure who our 5 starters will be, let alone the top 3. We have at least 3-4 bullpen openings, at least we hope they are openings.

And if money solves all problems, why aren't all the rich MLB owners doing the same thing.

You cannot spend money and address the farm system at the same time. You can spend money, if you have talent knocking at the door at AAA and/or AA.

Age of owners

ARZ 72
ATL 74
BAL 86
BOS 66
CHC 52
CHW 79
CIN 73
CLE 84
COL 55
DET 86
HOU 61
KCR 70
LAA 69
LAD 55
MIA 74
MIL 58
MIN 62
NYM 78
NYY 45
OAK 54
PHI 69
PIT 53
SDP 72
SFG 82
SEA N/A (owned by Nintendo)
STL 74
TBR 56
TEX 73
TOR N/A (owned by Roger Communications)
WSN 89

15 of the 28 MLB owner are over 70. 7 are over 75, 5 over 80. Some of them have just as much money as Illitch.

swami45 said:

In my opinion the best thing the Tigers could do is follow the Red Sox blue print from a couple of years ago. This team has so many holes to fill with an already high payroll.

I'd target veteran B list free agents and sign then to one and two year deals. I don't think we can target any top ten guy, just have to get lucky. Worked for Boston when they picked up Dempster, Uehara, Victorino, Napoli, Drew, Gomes, Ross, and Carp. Who would have thought that crew would have a huge part in a world series? Just have to get lucky

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

Click to expand...

But right before they did that they made that trade to the Dodgers.

First baseman Adrian Gonzalez, left fielder Carl Crawford, righthander Josh Beckett and infielder Nick Punto to the Dodgers in exchange for first baseman James Loney, infielder Ivan DeJesus Jr., outfielder/first baseman Jerry Sands, pitcher Rubby De La Rosa and pitching prospect Allen Webster.

Also sent $12M to LA

tomdalton22 said:

But right before they did that they made that trade to the Dodgers.

First baseman Adrian Gonzalez, left fielder Carl Crawford, righthander Josh Beckett and infielder Nick Punto to the Dodgers in exchange for first baseman James Loney, infielder Ivan DeJesus Jr., outfielder/first baseman Jerry Sands, pitcher Rubby De La Rosa and pitching prospect Allen Webster.

Also sent $12M to LA

Click to expand...

True, they freed up the money to sign those players, but in all it was only about 100 Million total in contracts they handed out. No different from what the tigers could fork out in contracts this summer.

swami45 said:

True, they freed up the money to sign those players, but in all it was only about 100 Million total in contracts they handed out. No different from what the tigers could fork out in contracts this summer.

Click to expand...

I think the Tigers are already on the hook for $141M next year. They are not going to add $100M to the payroll. It was $178M last year...let's assume it goes up to $185M next year. That leaves about $44M for 2 starters, a corner OF, a CF, a catcher and 3-4 bull pen arms!

Rebbiv said:

And if money solves all problems, why aren't all the rich MLB owners doing the same thing.

15 of the 28 MLB owner are over 70. 7 are over 75, 5 over 80. Some of them have just as much money as Illitch.

Click to expand...

Exactly, just because you're doesnt mean you will spend it on the team.

For example, how many fans realize that the majority owner of the Oakland As is richer than Illitch and doesn't spend a dime on that team.



Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

tomdalton22 said:

I think the Tigers are already on the hook for $141M next year. They are not going to add $100M to the payroll. It was $178M last year...let's assume it goes up to $185M next year. That leaves about $44M for 2 starters, a corner OF, a CF, a catcher and 3-4 bull pen arms!

Click to expand...

The 100M I referenced was the totals of the contracts together, not just one year.

The Red Sox went out and got Dempster, Uehara, Napoli, Drew, Victorino, Ross, Gomes, and Carp for that price. Their contracts for the year was less than 50 million and the longest deal among them was Victorino at 3 years, everyone else was 2 years or less

You are right though, they have far too many holes to fill. Thats why I think its best to load up on B list vetetan players with that money and hope it works out well. If not they are all short term deals so the players will be movable.

Not so fast rabbit.

Rebbiv said:

This team had the worst farm system of all MLB clubs. How does spending more money help that?

The issue will be, when there are injuries, and all teams have them, we DO NOT have replacement level players in the high minors (AAA/AA). Add to the fact that we have 3 players (Castellanos, Gose and McCann) that are in the bottom third for their position. We aren't sure who our 5 starters will be, let alone the top 3. We have at least 3-4 bullpen openings, at least we hope they are openings.

And if money solves all problems, why aren't all the rich MLB owners doing the same thing.

You cannot spend money and address the farm system at the same time. You can spend money, if you have talent knocking at the door at AAA and/or AA.

Age of owners

ARZ 72
ATL 74
BAL 86
BOS 66
CHC 52
CHW 79
CIN 73
CLE 84
COL 55
DET 86
HOU 61
KCR 70
LAA 69
LAD 55
MIA 74
MIL 58
MIN 62
NYM 78
NYY 45
OAK 54
PHI 69
PIT 53
SDP 72
SFG 82
SEA N/A (owned by Nintendo)
STL 74
TBR 56
TEX 73
TOR N/A (owned by Roger Communications)
WSN 89

15 of the 28 MLB owner are over 70. 7 are over 75, 5 over 80. Some of them have just as much money as Illitch.

Click to expand...

First, Ilitch's age is a red herring it has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

Second, not so fast what metrics are you using to rank Gose, Castellanos, and McCann? Cause, that statement that they are all in the bottom third of their position is simply not true by any measure that I can find (also, they are cheap, young and improving McCann had a drop off but Castellanos, as always, continued to improve throughout the year, and Gose should signs of improvement).
Cause, McCann is a middle of the pack guy, good fielder, good at the plate (for a catcher), still lacking some savvy at the MLB level.
Sorry, but on that I am calling BS.
As for Gose and Castellanos fine, I think that at least with the latter that it is more complicated than that (Nick is the second youngest player on the team, and he continues to improve, last season he was better at the end than he was at the beginning, and this season he has likewise improved, if he keeps that up, he might prove to have been worth the wait).



The Tigers only need 4 players that are not currently on the team, and one of them needs to be a big deal, the other can be less big deal.

They need a #1 style pitcher to back up Verlander, if they want to compete, they might cheap out and get a weaker pitcher and think of doing a Price-like trade at the deadline, but I think that is a mistake. Al Avila needs to make a splash, this was a depressing season, the organization needs to show that it is committed to turning it around.
They need a REAL closer.
They need at least two other reliable arms for the pen.

That is it.

#1 JV
#2 Free Agent big name (Price wouldn't be bad, but probably too pricey)
#3 Sanchez (Tigers need to manager that shoulder of his)
#4 Could be a Free Agent or #4 and #5 could be Norris in his first full rookie season, Greene (perhaps his inconsistency was that numb finger?), Lobstien, Fulmer, Boyd, 5 guys competing for two spots.

Farmer and Ryan are now bull pen arms (I think they will have success out there), Wilson, Hardy, and Verhagen are other arms in the pen, literally every other member of the 2015 Tigers bull pen have to go. They just can't be relied upon. That is 5 guys already in the pen that the Tigers want to keep cause they did a nice job, now they need to find a closer and another arm.

So 4 players maybe 6 max if the go whole hog and get a #4 starter and a left fielder (which is a far lower priority than fixing the pitching staff) and is something that the next year's deadline might bring.

It is going to be a tough off season, but not even remotely impossible.

JackCade said:

Second, not so fast what metrics are you using to rank Gose, Castellanos, and McCann? Cause, that statement that they are all in the bottom third of their position is simply not true by any measure that I can find

Click to expand...

out of 20 qualified MLB 3b

Nick

17th OBP
16th OPS
18th WAR
17th DWAR

He might be the worst starting 3B in MLB

JackCade said:

First, Ilitch's age is a red herring it has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about.

Second, not so fast what metrics are you using to rank Gose, Castellanos, and McCann? Cause, that statement that they are all in the bottom third of their position is simply not true by any measure that I can find (also, they are cheap, young and improving McCann had a drop off but Castellanos, as always, continued to improve throughout the year, and Gose should signs of improvement).
Cause, McCann is a middle of the pack guy, good fielder, good at the plate (for a catcher), still lacking some savvy at the MLB level.
Sorry, but on that I am calling BS.
As for Gose and Castellanos fine, I think that at least with the latter that it is more complicated than that (Nick is the second youngest player on the team, and he continues to improve, last season he was better at the end than he was at the beginning, and this season he has likewise improved, if he keeps that up, he might prove to have been worth the wait).



The Tigers only need 4 players that are not currently on the team, and one of them needs to be a big deal, the other can be less big deal.

They need a #1 style pitcher to back up Verlander, if they want to compete, they might cheap out and get a weaker pitcher and think of doing a Price-like trade at the deadline, but I think that is a mistake. Al Avila needs to make a splash, this was a depressing season, the organization needs to show that it is committed to turning it around.
They need a REAL closer.
They need at least two other reliable arms for the pen.

That is it.

#1 JV
#2 Free Agent big name (Price wouldn't be bad, but probably too pricey)
#3 Sanchez (Tigers need to manager that shoulder of his)
#4 Could be a Free Agent or #4 and #5 could be Norris in his first full rookie season, Greene (perhaps his inconsistency was that numb finger?), Lobstien, Fulmer, Boyd, 5 guys competing for two spots.

Farmer and Ryan are now bull pen arms (I think they will have success out there), Wilson, Hardy, and Verhagen are other arms in the pen, literally every other member of the 2015 Tigers bull pen have to go. They just can't be relied upon. That is 5 guys already in the pen that the Tigers want to keep cause they did a nice job, now they need to find a closer and another arm.

So 4 players maybe 6 max if the go whole hog and get a #4 starter and a left fielder (which is a far lower priority than fixing the pitching staff) and is something that the next year's deadline might bring.

It is going to be a tough off season, but not even remotely impossible.

Click to expand...

Have you heard of WAR (Wins Above Replacement)? It incorporates both defense and offense into one metric.

McCann finished 14 of 16 MLB catchers with at least 400 PAs.

Castellanos finished 25 of 28 MLB thirdbasemen with at least 400 PAs.

Gose finished 29 of 31 MLB centerfielders with at least 400 PAs.


You're new here, but just a hint, I do not post stuff that I cannot back up with statistics. You might not like the data, but don't shoot the messenger.

Last 3 years at the MLB level against RHP (teams see RHP 70-75% of the time)

M. Cabrera 124. RC/650 .409 OBP .553 SLG .962 OPS 11.1 PA/BB 22.3 PA/HR

J.D. Martinez 97.8 RC/650 .331 OBP .502 SLG .833 OPS 21.9 PA/BB 23.0 PA/HR

V. Martinez 86.8 RC/650 .355 OBP .439 SLG .794 OPS 15.0 PA/BB 33.2 PA/HR

I. Kinsler 80.1 RC/650 .325 OBP .415 SLG .740 OPS 17.0 PA/BB 46.0 PA/HR

T. Collins 79.4 RC/650 .316 OBP .421 SLG .737 OPS 15.1 PA/BB 42.6 PA/HR

A. Avila 77.3 RC/650 .345 OBP .381 SLG .726 OPS 6.6 PA/BB 34.0 PA/BB


AL Average 75.2 RC/650 .317 OBP .403 SLG .720 OPS 13.5 PA/BB 37.1 PA/HR


B. Holaday 73.4 RC/650 .320 OBP .366 SLG .686 OPS 25.7 PA/BB 154.0 PA/HR

A. Gose 72.9 RC/650 .326 OBP .379 SLG .705 OPS 12.6 PA/BB 87.0 PA/HR

J. Iglesias 70.3 RC/650 .334 OBP .349 SLG .683 OPS 32.6 PA/BB 294.0 PA/HR

R. Davis 63.8 RC/650 .291 OBP .353 SLG .644 OPS 21.3 PA/BB 71.6 PA/HR

N. Castellanos 63.6 RC/650 .288 OBP .389 SLG .677 OPS 19.4 PA/BB 49.8 PA/HR

J. McCann 60.6 RC/650 .278 OBP .335 SLG .613 OPS 32.6 PA/BB 108.7 PA/HR

A. Romine 46.8 RC/650 .285 OBP .270 SLG .554 OPS 15.3 PA/BB 158.0 PA/HR

BOLD = Below League Average


Against RHP, exactly who is providing the offense?

JackCade said:

McCann is a middle of the pack guy, good fielder, good at the plate (for a catcher), still lacking some savvy at the MLB level.
Sorry, but on that I am calling BS.

Click to expand...

James McCann vs. RHP: .247/.277/.332/.609 "Good at the plate (for a catcher)" ~ yeah, no. If we ONLY ever saw LHP, we might be okay offensive wise, but in reality 3 out of 4 PA's will be against RHP.

As to his actual behind the plate abilities: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1819124

Literally ranked 108 out of 109 Catchers in MLB in 2015

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

Dead last.

And none of this is a shock:

http://www.blessyouboys.com/2015/7/...james-mccann-catcher-pitch-framing-statistics

We have known for a while.



So, sorry, I'm calling BS on your calling of the BS