jimmygank said:

How long has Kinsler been with the Tigers? Does anyone other than you really care what he did in Texas? Omar had a good season for us in 2013, but Kinsler has been better ever since.

Also, you can't just ignore 50% of players games. Home games are just as important and HAVE to be factored in as well. IMO It's like leaving out half the chapters in a book.

Click to expand...

People like to evaluate players minus park factors but yes i agree that u can't simply ignore the other games as if they didn't exist. Rebbiv also includes 2010 (which was far and away infantes best season) and then goes on to call 2014 an anomaly. If anything 2010 was the bigger anomaly. Is Kinsler expensive? Of course. Important to note they got him as well as shed the fielder contract by in large[/QUOTE]


Infante Away

2010 = .753 OPS

2011 = .721 OPS

2012 = .742 OPS

2013 = .735 OPS

2014 = .653 OPS


2010 - 2013 are all with about 30 points, which is acceptable yearly fluctuation tolerance.


Kinsler Away

2010 = .710 OPS

2011 = .730 OPS

2012 = .611 OPS

2013 = .735 OPS

2014 = .734 OPS


So Kinsler's outlier is included in the last 3 years and the last 5 years. Same with Infante's. Otherwise, they are both very similar in park neutral parks.

The last two seasons (right along with the decline of the Rangers) the ballpark has slipped back a fair deal. It's relatively short down the lines but left center is deeper than comerica. Regardless the value a player brings to HIS team takes into account 162 games. U think infante would have the power to left Kinsler had at Arlington? No. So why just completely dismiss that?

Would u rather have had barely league average infante last year? Would u rather have infante at 10 million in 2017 or Kinsler at 11?

There is more to the story than taking only away stats into the equation . I don't agree with that methodology. I just dont.

jimmygank said:

The last two seasons (right along with the decline of the Rangers) the ballpark has slipped back a fair deal. It's relatively short down the lines but left center is deeper than comerica. Regardless the value a player brings to HIS team takes into account 162 games. U think infante would have the power to left Kinsler had at Arlington? No. So why just completely dismiss that?

Would u rather have had barely league average infante last year? Would u rather have infante at 10 million in 2017 or Kinsler at 11?

There is more to the story than taking only away stats into the equation . I don't agree with that methodology. I just dont.

Click to expand...

You don't have to agree. But, in my opinion, it takes away home park biases. A poor MLB roster can have an effect on a park swinging from a hitter's park to park neutral.


Your argument supports overvaluing a lefthanded hitter from Yankee stadium. Or we should give players from Colorado equal value. Or pitchers from Saefco or PetCo.

There is no perfect system in evaluating players. MLB is not like NBA, NFL or NHL in regards to having every dimension uniform. Wind effects (blowing in or out) are more of a factor than NFL.


Most MLB players perform better at home. But they all play on the road. Those same skills play at home as well, yet some players are going to get benefit and/or liability based on their home park bias. If I am a lefthanded power hitter, I want to play for the Yankees. If I am a pitcher, I want to pitch for SEA or SDG.

Ball Park factors for 2011 thru 2014

Other than Petco Park and Yankee Stadium and a couple others - HR's are all over the place.

You just have to give a player credit for hitting the ball out of the park.

More credit (Jedd Gyorko) at Petco and less for a LH batter (Robinson Cano) in Yankee stadium.

HR's in Texas went down when Josh Hamilton left.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/year/2011/sort/HRFactor

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/year/2012/sort/HRFactor

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/year/2013/sort/HRFactor

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/year/2014/sort/HRFactor

thehippo73 said:

I prefer Kinsler over Infante. Someone hitting at the top of the order has more impact than someone hitting 8th or 9th.

Don't get me wrong, I like Infante when he was here. But I prefer Kinsler.

Click to expand...

Kinsler and Cano are almost the same player since they both changed teams in 2014

The numbers are almost the same except Cano took 32 (20 were intentional)more walks than Kinsler. Ian Kinsler only had 1 intentional walk

So basically you are paying Cano $8,000,000 a year more than KInsler for 12 extra walks a year

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/canoro01.shtml

Kinsler has a salary of $16,000,000 per season Cano's salary $ 24,000,000 per season

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kinslia01.shtml#contracts

Rebbiv said:

You don't have to agree. But, in my opinion, it takes away home park biases. A poor MLB roster can have an effect on a park swinging from a hitter's park to park neutral.


Your argument supports overvaluing a lefthanded hitter from Yankee stadium. Or we should give players from Colorado equal value. Or pitchers from Saefco or PetCo.

There is no perfect system in evaluating players. MLB is not like NBA, NFL or NHL in regards to having every dimension uniform. Wind effects (blowing in or out) are more of a factor than NFL.


Most MLB players perform better at home. But they all play on the road. Those same skills play at home as well, yet some players are going to get benefit and/or liability based on their home park bias. If I am a lefthanded power hitter, I want to play for the Yankees. If I am a pitcher, I want to pitch for SEA or SDG.

Click to expand...

Jedd Gyorko is a player that you should be using home stats with not away. His home ball park does not favor him.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=gyorkje01&year=2013&t=b

stonecold2136 said:

Ball Park factors for 2011 thru 2014

Other than Petco Park and Yankee Stadium and a couple others - HR's are all over the place.

You just have to give a player credit for hitting the ball out of the park.

More credit (Jedd Gyorko) at Petco and less for a LH batter (Robinson Cano) in Yankee stadium.

HR's in Texas went down when Josh Hamilton left.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/year/2011/sort/HRFactor

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/year/2012/sort/HRFactor

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/year/2013/sort/HRFactor

http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor/_/year/2014/sort/HRFactor

Click to expand...

First, Home Runs is just one item to determine park factor and you cannot look at just one year's worth of data. Run per game, BAVG, Triples (Comerica) and XBH should all be included. How much foul territory is big. How much room is in the outfield is also key.

http://www.parkfactors.com/TEX

Arlington is the tied for 2nd as a hitter friendliest park from 2010-2013, behind Coors. Comerica was 15th, or Park Neutral.

stonecold2136 said:

Kinsler and Cano are almost the same player since they both changed teams in 2014

The numbers are almost the same except Cano took 32 (20 were intentional)more walks than Kinsler. Ian Kinsler only had 1 intentional walk

So basically you are paying Cano $8,000,000 a year more than KInsler for 12 extra walks a year

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/canoro01.shtml

Kinsler has a salary of $16,000,000 per season Cano's salary $ 24,000,000 per season

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kinslia01.shtml#contracts

Click to expand...

2014

Cano .314 BAVG .382 OBP .454 SLG .836 OPS

Kinsler .275 BAVG .307 OBP .420 SLG .727 OPS


How is that being the same? 109 point difference in OPS in huge.

stonecold2136 said:

Jedd Gyorko is a player that you should be using home stats with not away. His home ball park does not favor him.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=gyorkje01&year=2013&t=b

Click to expand...

Good for you. You found the rare exception to the rule. Just like there are some righthanded pitchers would do better against Lefty hitters.

stonecold2136 said:

Kinsler and Cano are almost the same player since they both changed teams in 2014

The numbers are almost the same except Cano took 32 (20 were intentional)more walks than Kinsler. Ian Kinsler only had 1 intentional walk

So basically you are paying Cano $8,000,000 a year more than KInsler for 12 extra walks a year

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/canoro01.shtml

Kinsler has a salary of $16,000,000 per season Cano's salary $ 24,000,000 per season

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kinslia01.shtml#contracts

Click to expand...

OMG

Wow.

Kinsler and Cano are the same.

Someones homer goggles have a bong built in to them.

Rebbiv said:

2014

Cano .314 BAVG .382 OBP .454 SLG .836 OPS

Kinsler .275 BAVG .307 OBP .420 SLG .727 OPS


How is that being the same? 109 point difference in OPS in huge.

Click to expand...

The stats are there for everyone to see. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. You say Potato I say Pototo you say tomato I say tomoto. All difference in opinion. One thing for sure you do not like it when people disagree with you.

Tiger fans have had a full year plus to see what Kinsler can do. He is becoming a fan favorite. There are also a ton Kinsler Jerseys being worn at the games. There must be a reason for that.

Kinsler had to earn every bit of OPS and OBP he got. He didn't have 20 Intentional walks givin to him Like Robinson Cano.

I will take Kinsler and his contract all day long over Cano's contract.

Kinsler's contract

2015 - 16,000,000 Age 33
2016 - 14,000,000 Age 34
2017 - $11,000,000 Age 35
2018 * $12,000,000 Age 36 (Option Year)

Total commitment to Kinsler when option is matched $53,000,000

Cano's Contract

2015 - 24,000,000 Age 32
2016 - 24,000,000 Age 33
2017 - 24,000,000 Age 34
2018 - 24,000,000 Age 35
2019 - 24,000,000 Age 36
2020 - 24,000,000 Age 37
2021 - 24,000,000 Age 38
2022 - 24,000,000 Age 39
2023 - 24,000,000 Age 40

Total commitment to Cano $ 216,000,000

You just don't like the guy plain and simple. He is a solid ball player.

stonecold2136 said:

The stats are there for everyone to see. I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder. You say Potato I say Pototo you say tomato I say tomoto. All difference in opinion. One thing for sure you do not like it when people disagree with you.

Tiger fans have had a full year plus to see what Kinsler can do. He is becoming a fan favorite. There are also a ton Kinsler Jerseys being worn at the games. There must be a reason for that.

Kinsler had to earn every bit of OPS and OBP he got. He didn't have 20 Intentional walks givin to him Like Robinson Cano.

I will take Kinsler and his contract all day long over Cano's contract.

Kinsler's contract

2015 - 16,000,000 Age 33
2016 - 14,000,000 Age 34
2017 - $11,000,000 Age 35
2018 * $12,000,000 Age 36 (Option Year)

Total commitment to Kinsler when option is matched $53,000,000

Cano's Contract

2015 - 24,000,000 Age 32
2016 - 24,000,000 Age 33
2017 - 24,000,000 Age 34
2018 - 24,000,000 Age 35
2019 - 24,000,000 Age 36
2020 - 24,000,000 Age 37
2021 - 24,000,000 Age 38
2022 - 24,000,000 Age 39
2023 - 24,000,000 Age 40

Total commitment to Cano $ 216,000,000

You just don't like the guy plain and simple. He is a solid ball player.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what this has to do with them being the same? As far as money it's a fair point but you brought up that outside of 8 walks they were similar. Which is untrue. Cano was the better player last season and it really wasn't close..

stonecold2136 said:

Kinsler had to earn every bit of OPS and OBP he got. He didn't have 20 Intentional walks givin to him Like Robinson Cano.

Click to expand...

I'm going to stop you here. Those walks weren't given to Cano, he earned them by being a dangerous hitter. The same way Miggy, and great hitters around the league get intentional walks.

stonecold2136 said:

You just don't like the guy plain and simple. He is a solid ball player.

Click to expand...

So because we disagree with your ridiculous notion that Cano and Kinsler are the same player since the start of 2014, something the stats prove is just not true, we just don't like him plain and simple? That's silly, and I bet you know it.

stonecold2136 said:

There are also a ton Kinsler Jerseys being worn at the games. There must be a reason for that.

Click to expand...

Does this same argument apply to Brandon Inge and Brennan Boesch? Because people bout a shitload of their jerseys as well.

Mitchrapp said:

I'm not sure what this has to do with them being the same? As far as money it's a fair point but you brought up that outside of 8 walks they were similar. Which is untrue. Cano was the better player last season and it really wasn't close..

Click to expand...

The players 2014 stats in different ballparks are in the links.



Once again links to Kinsler and Cano's complete stats

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/k/kinslia01.shtml

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/canoro01.shtml#contracts

Thumb said:

I'm going to stop you here. Those walks weren't given to Cano, he earned them by being a dangerous hitter. The same way Miggy, and great hitters around the league get intentional walks.





So because we disagree with your ridiculous notion that Cano and Kinsler are the same player since the start of 2014, something the stats prove is just not true, we just don't like him plain and simple? That's silly, and I bet you know it.





Does this same argument apply to Brandon Inge and Brennan Boesch? Because people bout a shitload of their jerseys as well.

Click to expand...

Well my point revolves around both players moving from 2 of the most hitter friendly to new parks in 2014.

Cano LH hitter in New York moves to Seattle's huge park

Kinsler from the Texas ball park to Comerica Park.

If you take away Cano's stats from 2009 when the new Yankee stadium was opened to 2013. Cano's numbers and Kinsler's numbers are very close.

stonecold2136 said:

Well my point revolves around both players moving from 2 of the most hitter friendly to new parks in 2014.

Cano LH hitter in New York moves to Seattle's huge park

Kinsler from the Texas ball park to Comerica Park.

If you take away Cano's stats from 2009 when the new Yankee stadium was opened to 2013. Cano's numbers and Kinsler's numbers are very close.

Click to expand...

2009-2013 Away (26 MLB 2B Qualify with 1,000 PA)

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.as...am=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=10,d

1. Cano .316 BAVG .370 OBP .524 SLG .894 OPS (.332 BABIP)

5. Pedroia .286 BAVG .359 OBP .408 SLG .767 OPS (.302 BABIP)

12. Infante .293 BAVG .323 OBP .413 SLG .736 OPS (.314 BABIP)

20. Kinsler .233 BAVG .302 OBP .387 SLG .689 OPS (.242 BABIP)


2009-2013 Home

1. Cano .312 BAVG .368 OBP .537 SLG .906 OPS (.315 BABIP)

2. Kinsler .296 BAVG .386 OBP .504 SLG .890 OPS (.294 BABIP)

3. Pedroia .309 BAVG .380 OBP .495 SLG .875 OPS (.318 BABIP)

16. Infante .299 BAVG .339 OBP .414 SLG .751 OPS (.323 BABIP)


Home vs Away Delta OPS

Kinsler 201 Points

Pedroia 108 Points


Infante 15 points

Cano 12 points


There are not many MLB players who have a 200 point swing from their Home vs Away OPS.

Top Hitting Parks

Colorado Players 2009-2013 #1 Hitter Park, 1000 PA Minimum (Home vs Away)

C. Gonzalez (L) 1.033 OPS vs .798 OPS 235 points

D. Fowler (S) .885 OPS vs .700 OPS 185 points

Team .837 OPS vs .678 OPS 159 points

T. Tulowitzki (R) .978 OPS vs .867 OPS 111 points

T. Helton (L) .858 OPS vs .751 OPS 107 points


CHW Players 2009-2013 tied #2 hitter park

P. Konerko (R) .914 OPS vs .800 OPS 114 points

A.J. Pierzynski (R) .793 OPS vs .708 OPS 85 points

A. Rios (R) .779 OPS vs .705 OPS 74 points

Team .749 OPS vs .699 OPS 50 points

A. Ramirez (R) .732 OPS vs .685 OPS 47 points

G. Beckham (R) .704 OPS vs .684 OPS 20 points


TEX Players 2009-2013 tied #2 hitter park

I. Kinsler (R) .689 OPS vs .890 OPS 201 points

N. Cruz (R) .931 OPS vs .752 OPS 179 points

M. Young (R) .844 OPS vs .753 OPS 91 points

D. Murphy (L) .813 OPS vs .728 OPS 85 points

Team .809 OPS vs .727 OPS 82 points

J. Hamilton (L) .947 OPS vs .883 OPS 65 Points

E. Andrus (R) .697 OPS vs .678 OPS 19 points


CIN Players 2009-2013 #3 hitter park

D. Stubbs (R) .773 OPS vs .630 OPS 143 points

J. Bruce (L) .875 OPS vs .764 OPS 111 points

Team .756 OPS vs .711 OPS 45 points

B. Phillips (R) .784 OPS vs .740 OPS 44 points

J. Votto (L) .944 OPS vs 1.012 OPS -68 points


NYY Players 2009-2013 tied #4 hitter park

M. Teixeira (S) .912 OPS vs .807 OPS 105 points

C. Granderson (L) .865 OPS vs .796 OPS 69 points

Team .807 OPS vs .750 OPS 57 points

A. Rodriguez (R) .865 OPS vs .819 OPS 46 points

D. Jeter (R) .793 OPS vs .755 OPS 38 points

B. Gardner (L) .752 OPS vs .736 OPS 16 points

R. Cano (L) .906 OPS vs .894 OPS 12 points

N. Swisher (S) .832 OPS vs .867 OPS -35 points



MIL Players 2009-2013 tied #4 hitter park

C. Hart (R) .947 OPS vs .732 OPS 215 points

R. Weeks (R) .827 OPS vs .725 OPS 102 points

P. Fielder (L) 1.007 OPS vs .907 OPS 100 points

Team .776 OPS vs .723 OPS 53 points

R. Braun (R) .943 OPS vs .934 OPS 9 points


DET Players 2009-2013 #15 hitter park

A. Avila (L) .844 OPS vs vs .701 OPS 143 points

J. Peralta (R) .817 OPS vs .714 OPS 103 points

M. Cabrera (R) 1.055 OPS vs .982 OPS 73 points

Team .795 OPS vs .730 OPS 65 points

A. Jackson (R) .773 OPS vs .747 OPS 26 points


MLB Average = .740 Home OPS vs .707 Away OPS 33 points