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Old 01-13-2018, 02:35 PM   #61
boogerlovejoy   boogerlovejoy is offline
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Originally Posted by LuciousGameWinner View Post
So you lose to Ohio State by 30, squeak by Rutgers in overtime, and lose to Michigan by 10. You arguably have the most talented team in the country...when does Izzo get some blame?
Now. He was out coached today. Ward couldn't guard Wagner yet there he was time after time.

No offensive flow. Nobody who can create their own shot. We should dominate inside but bailed on trying sometime early in the 2nd half.

Stupid.



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Old 01-13-2018, 05:37 PM   #62
MSUMatt28   MSUMatt28 is offline
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There's time to turn it around, but the team looks a bit fraudulent at the moment. Other teams are figuring out how to attack us. Go at Winston and Langford off the dribble, and if that doesn't work hope you have a big who can shoot 3's, and try to limit the impact JJJ has blocking shots (though he's still getting his). I think the team has gotten to relying too much on the bail out block anyway and is not being sound in a lot of other ways defensively. I don't see any rotations happening when guys are getting beat off the dribble.

Offensively the halfcourt offense needs a lot of work and they lack a go-to guy right now because Bridges hasn't delivered often enough.

Last edited by MSUMatt28; 01-13-2018 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:18 AM   #63
Spartanmack   Spartanmack is online now
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Originally Posted by boogerlovejoy View Post
Now. He was out coached today. Ward couldn't guard Wagner yet there he was time after time.

No offensive flow. Nobody who can create their own shot. We should dominate inside but bailed on trying sometime early in the 2nd half.

Stupid.
it's not just this year, what is this the 3rd loaded team in 5 or 6 years where he hasn't developed elite players like Dawson, Bridges, Davis, etc, consistently mismanaged players by underplaying the most talented and overplaying walk-ons and scrubs, and running a horrible offensive set? Now his teams are shaky on defense and rebounding.

I don't know how anyone can watch that game where a bunch of 3 star kids beat supposedly one of the most talented teams in the country on our home floor and say Izzo is a better coach than Beilein. If you're going to praise Dantonio for overachieving by finding diamonds in the rough and developing lesser players into elite or near elite talent, then you have to give Beilein credit for the same. If Dantonio is really that guy, then John Beilein is the Mark Dantonio of college basketball or maybe Mark Dantonio is the John Beilein of college football.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:28 AM   #64
Spartanmack   Spartanmack is online now
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Originally Posted by MSUMatt28 View Post
There's time to turn it around, but the team looks a bit fraudulent at the moment. Other teams are figuring out how to attack us. Go at Winston and Langford off the dribble, and if that doesn't work hope you have a big who can shoot 3's, and try to limit the impact JJJ has blocking shots (though he's still getting his). I think the team has gotten to relying too much on the bail out block anyway and is not being sound in a lot of other ways defensively. I don't see any rotations happening when guys are getting beat off the dribble.

Offensively the halfcourt offense needs a lot of work and they lack a go-to guy right now because Bridges hasn't delivered often enough.
I agree, all is not lost and the team looks soft, entitled and kinda rudderless - who is or is going to become the leader on the floor to get this figure out. I was talking to my brother who is a michigan grad and he had a lot of the same criticisms we see here - his biggest question was why aren't you guys running pick and roll - with Ward, JJJ and Bridges you can always have a lineup on the floor where it's an option. All I could say was we've been wondering the same thing for a few seasons now.

And I guess I got the answer to my question about whether or not Ward was a good passer and able to find open guys when double teamed.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:37 AM   #65
gotime909   gotime909 is offline
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Originally Posted by Spartanmack View Post
it's not just this year, what is this the 3rd loaded team in 5 or 6 years where he hasn't developed elite players like Dawson, Bridges, Davis, etc, consistently mismanaged players by underplaying the most talented and overplaying walk-ons and scrubs, and running a horrible offensive set? Now his teams are shaky on defense and rebounding.

I don't know how anyone can watch that game where a bunch of 3 star kids beat supposedly one of the most talented teams in the country on our home floor and say Izzo is a better coach than Beilein. If you're going to praise Dantonio for overachieving by finding diamonds in the rough and developing lesser players into elite or near elite talent, then you have to give Beilein credit for the same. If Dantonio is really that guy, then John Beilein is the Mark Dantonio of college basketball or maybe Mark Dantonio is the John Beilein of college football.
I agree with all of this
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:43 AM   #66
gotime909   gotime909 is offline
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I’d like to see Miles moved back to the 4 and see what happens. Just run Bridges, Jackson Ward with Schilling mixed in at the 4/5. Even if Goins has to take on some minutes at the 3.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:47 AM   #67
johnny2x2x   johnny2x2x is offline
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Originally Posted by Spartanmack View Post
it's not just this year, what is this the 3rd loaded team in 5 or 6 years where he hasn't developed elite players like Dawson, Bridges, Davis, etc, consistently mismanaged players by underplaying the most talented and overplaying walk-ons and scrubs, and running a horrible offensive set? Now his teams are shaky on defense and rebounding.

I don't know how anyone can watch that game where a bunch of 3 star kids beat supposedly one of the most talented teams in the country on our home floor and say Izzo is a better coach than Beilein. If you're going to praise Dantonio for overachieving by finding diamonds in the rough and developing lesser players into elite or near elite talent, then you have to give Beilein credit for the same. If Dantonio is really that guy, then John Beilein is the Mark Dantonio of college basketball or maybe Mark Dantonio is the John Beilein of college football.
There are similarities, but the biggest difference is Dantonio is 8-3 vs Michigan, Beilein is 8-11 vs Michigan State.

I kind of see that Beilein has remained consistent in his style for a long time, and that the College game and the NBA for that matter have come around to his style. Beilein has 5 guys on the floor who can all handle the ball and who can all shoot. He gets those types of players.

Izzo still has post players and guys who are limited with the ball in their hands.

It's 3 bad games, I think this off week comes at a good time, I want to see the offense moving the ball a lot more.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:51 AM   #68
MSUMatt28   MSUMatt28 is offline
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Originally Posted by Spartanmack View Post
it's not just this year, what is this the 3rd loaded team in 5 or 6 years where he hasn't developed elite players like Dawson, Bridges, Davis, etc, consistently mismanaged players by underplaying the most talented and overplaying walk-ons and scrubs, and running a horrible offensive set? Now his teams are shaky on defense and rebounding.

I don't know how anyone can watch that game where a bunch of 3 star kids beat supposedly one of the most talented teams in the country on our home floor and say Izzo is a better coach than Beilein. If you're going to praise Dantonio for overachieving by finding diamonds in the rough and developing lesser players into elite or near elite talent, then you have to give Beilein credit for the same. If Dantonio is really that guy, then John Beilein is the Mark Dantonio of college basketball or maybe Mark Dantonio is the John Beilein of college football.
I agree with the comments regarding Beilein. He probably is the Dantonio of college basketball. Look at the guys he's put into the NBA (Hardaway, GR III, Stauskas to name a few), and none of them were that highly rated as recruits.

I think we are overrating the talent in some of Izzo's more recent teams. The DV led team from 2 years ago? They were led by DV, Forbes, and Costello. None of them were ever top 75 recruits, but are all in the NBA. Yet they were one of the best offensive teams (if not the best) that Izzo ever had and one of the better shooting teams in the NCAA in recent memory. Go back and watch the way that team moved the ball. It was beautiful. They lost ultimately because they weren't athletic enough defensively and ran into an opponent that had a once in a lifetime day. I agree Izzo mismanaged Deyonta Davis that year though. The Harris/Payne, led team WAS pretty talented but got done in by injuries (but still managed an Elite 8 and Big Ten Tournament title).

As for this year's team, they ARE pretty loaded when we consider they have 2 kids that will probably go in the top 12 of next year's draft (though I think Bridges is sliding at this point), but I am not sure if Winston, Langford, or Ward will ever play in the NBA and they are all still just sophomores. So maybe we have overrated the talent a little bit on this team too, though there is certainly enough talent to win big in today's world and this IS still a team that hung with Duke all the way and stomped 2 pretty good teams in North Carolina and Notre Dame. Their problems appear as much mental as physical right now. It's now on Izzo as a Hall of Fame coach to figure it out.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:20 AM   #69
Spartanmack   Spartanmack is online now
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Originally Posted by johnny2x2x View Post
There are similarities, but the biggest difference is Dantonio is 8-3 vs Michigan, Beilein is 8-11 vs Michigan State.

I kind of see that Beilein has remained consistent in his style for a long time, and that the College game and the NBA for that matter have come around to his style. Beilein has 5 guys on the floor who can all handle the ball and who can all shoot. He gets those types of players.

Izzo still has post players and guys who are limited with the ball in their hands.

It's 3 bad games, I think this off week comes at a good time, I want to see the offense moving the ball a lot more.
Another big difference is Dantonio has never taken an unranked team into AA and beaten the 4th ranked wolvernines - and it wasn't lucky bounces or biased officiating (I almost said it wasn't "bad" officiating but quickly realized that's the only kind of officiating in college basketball). We were outplayed and outcoached. But it's not about whether Beilein is a better coach than Dantonio - that would be a ridiculous argument. The point is Beilein is similar to Dantonio and develops players better than Izzo does.

Izzo has remained consistent in his style too, and that's kind of the problem. It's not just 3 bad games - I don't think you would be saying that if we hadn't played so many cupcakes where the offense wasn't tested (except by Rutgers, which is actually a very good defensive team). It's 2 really bad games and a bunch of other not great or even bad games. In the beginning, after the dook loss I wasn't so worried because I thought the ceiling for us was higher than dook's given our age and the opportunity for Izzo to get the offense worked out. At best, we've stagnated and now appear to be regressing.

The talent is there and the coaching talent should be as well - although I've wondered about the assistant staff for awhile now. He has to become a bit more dynamic. The obvious thing to me is to at least implement the pick and roll - that's one way to compensate for post players who are limited with the ball in their hands. It just seems so obvious that I feel like we have to be missing some reason why it's not part of the offense.
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Old 01-15-2018, 11:28 AM   #70
Spartanmack   Spartanmack is online now
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Originally Posted by gotime909 View Post
I’d like to see Miles moved back to the 4 and see what happens. Just run Bridges, Jackson Ward with Schilling mixed in at the 4/5. Even if Goins has to take on some minutes at the 3.
I agree but it matters who you have playing the 3 - you need someone that can shoot otherwise teams can just guard Bridges like he's the 3 and it won't solve anything. JJJ is shooting well enough that he can even play the 3 (on offense) making teams think twice about how to guard him and Bridges.

Last edited by Spartanmack; 01-15-2018 at 11:29 AM.
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