I rather have Fulmer than Green. I'm a believer that you learn the most at the ML level. And that there is no such thing as ruining a pitchers confidence. Play the best weather they make money or not, weather they are 29 or 15.

This issue with Norris has always been his endurance and economy of pitches. He certainly has the stuff to pitch 4-5 innings, but unless he takes that next step, he will never be a starter who can give you 6 on a regular basis. Oliver Perez and Wil Ledezma are two that come to mind who came up with all the hype and couldn't become effective starters. They could occasionally give you that gem of a start, but had short outings in between. Perez is now a highly effective reliever.

And it isn't like running Norris out there now the switch might get turned on and he all of a sudden starts lasting later and later into the games. It might take months for it to occur, if it is going to occur. Yes, he occasionally has a good game and goes 7 innings, but then he will have 2-3 starts in between where he struggles to get to the 5th inning.


Currently, Matt Boyd is the one that is pitching the best in the minors. The last 3 starts he has gone 21.3 IP with just 2 ERs.

Starts of 7 Innings or more (2016+2015)

Boyd 12
Norris 6
Fulmer 4


Quality Starts 2016+2015 in the minors

Boyd 15-26 57.7%
Fulmer 12-25 48.0%
Norris 8-23 34.8%

Quality Starts at MLB level

Greene 12-33 36.4%
Boyd 4-12 33.3%
Norris 3-14 21.4%
Fulmer 0-4 00.0%

I believe some imortant info was left out, Boyd is a 25 yr old drafted out of college and both Norris and Fulmer just turned 23 and were drafted out of HS. Of course he's been ahead of their innings the past couple years.

gotime909 said:

I believe some imortant info was left out, Boyd is a 25 yr old drafted out of college and both Norris and Fulmer just turned 23 and were drafted out of HS. Of course he's been ahead of their innings the past couple years.

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Is there any correlation that 25 year old's have an easier time going longer into games than a 23 year old? I'm sure we can all think of young SP that could pitch deep into games..

Mitchrapp said:

Is there any correlation that 25 year old's have an easier time going longer into games than a 23 year old? I'm sure we can all think of young SP that could pitch deep into games..

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There are hundreds of 23 year olds that can pitch deep into the games, even in the minors. It is just an argument to make to be argumentative.

Mitchrapp said:

Is there any correlation that 25 year old's have an easier time going longer into games than a 23 year old? I'm sure we can all think of young SP that could pitch deep into games..

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In today's baseball a 25 year old is likely to have a higher pitch count than a 23 year old.

Seems like after age 23 they usually let them go full. IMO

Of course there are exceptions.

Rebbiv said:

There are hundreds of 23 year olds that can pitch deep into the games, even in the minors. It is just an argument to make to be argumentative.

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So I can get you on record of saying teams aren't limiting young top starting pitching prospects innings?

gotime909 said:

So I can get you on record of saying teams aren't limiting young top starting pitching prospects innings?

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Not 23 year old's that have been at the ml level for 5 years.

And Norris is not a top prospect based on his ml career so far.

The Tigers pitching staff, including the pen, is bad. I'm starting to think that Avila is a clone of DD. It doesn't seem either of them make really sound decisions. At least DD had the balls to cut bait last year and make some moves for the future. Of course, that's probably what got him "fired"

I hope Green gets moved to the bullpen. He could bring everything he has in 1 inning

Mitchrapp said:

Not 23 year old's that have been at the ml level for 5 years.

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Whether the name is Syndergaard, Gray, Smyly, or Porcello, they all are limited to about 100 pitches or less to start. With economy of pitches, these pitchers regularly pitched well into the 6th inning and had pretty decent Quality Start percentages given the league they were in.

Michael Fulmer is the same age as Norris and Fulmer's Quality Starts is greater than Norris'.

2014-2016 Inning Pitched per Game Starter Minors (AA+AAA)

Fulmer 26 GS 11 QS 42.3% 136.3 IP 5.24 IP/GS 2182 pit = 83.9 pit/GS
Norris 33 GS 10 QS 30.3% 171.3 IP 5.19 IP/GS 2885 pit = 87.4 pit/GS

Fulmer 136.3 IP 122 H 41 ER 38 BB 137 SO 2.71 ERA 1.17 WHIP

Norris 171.3 IP 173 H 89 ER 77 BB 148 SO 4.68 ERA 1.46 WHIP

If we don't include this year's Toledo hot mess

Norris 149.0 IP 142 H 69 ER 66 BB 125 SO 4.17 ERA 1.40 WHIP


Yes Norris is only 23. But if you compare him with pitchers throughout the last 20-30 years based on AA+AAA numbers alone (or even 22 years at the MLB level), he is underwhelming and his statistics suggest he will have difficulty going deep into games.

Rebbiv said:

Whether the name is Syndergaard, Gray, Smyly, or Porcello, they all are limited to about 100 pitches or less to start. With economy of pitches, these pitchers regularly pitched well into the 6th inning and had pretty decent Quality Start percentages given the league they were in.

Michael Fulmer is the same age as Norris and Fulmer's Quality Starts is greater than Norris'.

2014-2016 Inning Pitched per Game Starter Minors (AA+AAA)

Fulmer 26 GS 11 QS 42.3% 136.3 IP 5.24 IP/GS 2182 pit = 83.9 pit/GS
Norris 33 GS 10 QS 30.3% 171.3 IP 5.19 IP/GS 2885 pit = 87.4 pit/GS

Fulmer 136.3 IP 122 H 41 ER 38 BB 137 SO 2.71 ERA 1.17 WHIP

Norris 171.3 IP 173 H 89 ER 77 BB 148 SO 4.68 ERA 1.46 WHIP

If we don't include this year's Toledo hot mess

Norris 149.0 IP 142 H 69 ER 66 BB 125 SO 4.17 ERA 1.40 WHIP


Yes Norris is only 23. But if you compare him with pitchers throughout the last 20-30 years based on AA+AAA numbers alone (or even 22 years at the MLB level), he is underwhelming and his statistics suggest he will have difficulty going deep into games.

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100 pitches is nothing to sneeze at. If you're somewhat effective you're going to get to 6 innings quite a bit. The point I was trying to make is the one you made, Norris sucks.

Mitchrapp said:

100 pitches is nothing to sneeze at. If you're somewhat effective you're going to get to 6 innings quite a bit. The point I was trying to make is the one you made, Norris sucks.

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But you and I are not going to convince some people on here.

Norris is probably better suited to be a late inning reliever. And with his stuff, he could be elite. But as a starter, he lacks the stamina/economy of pitches to go deep into games. If he continues to have 100 pitches at 5 innings, even if he gives up just a few runs, he is not helping. That is the point I am making.

Rebbiv said:

But you and I are not going to convince some people on here.

Norris is probably better suited to be a late inning reliever. And with his stuff, he could be elite. But as a starter, he lacks the stamina/economy of pitches to go deep into games. If he continues to have 100 pitches at 5 innings, even if he gives up just a few runs, he is not helping. That is the point I am making.

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Here's the big question I have. Why do you feel you NEED to convince anyone?

gotime909 said:

Here's the big question I have. Why do you feel you NEED to convince anyone?

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It is a figure of speech, that's all. I will now put you back on ignore.

Rebbiv said:

It is a figure of speech, that's all. I will now put you back on ignore.

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Thank you

Thank you KC for that video reprise... Seems since my original post, Fulmer has stepped up big time... He has now started to show a 3rd pitch... If he continues with the results he has had against the BJ's and A's, then we might have something... If this guy is real (he has the stuff), then throwing Zim, JV, and Fulmer all of a sudden becomes a rotation, regardless of how Sanchez/Pelfry/Norris/Greene does... BTW, I'd rather see Greene get his chance before Pelfry ever gets a chance to throw again in a Tiger uniform...