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Upton to Tigers 6 years, and tried to trade him during 2016 season

jdeb said:
I don't know about that statement. Look, he is going to help us win maybe 85 games and I say 85 if everything goes right. So he makes us better at a high cost which will drive prices up. I'm going to support the team by buying a small season ticket package because the owner is spending hard to win. 85 wins might win this division because it looks like CHI, CLE, and MIN got better. KC did a nice job of staying the best. Hopefully, the improvements will tighten the race up so KC don't run away with it again. Our depth and bullpen are better than last year so if we can get solid starting pitching, we should be in this thing to the end.


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the problem is....everything doesn't go right...it never does
 
I hear so much about how this team will be in financial purgatory in the future and it'll be brutal for them to recover for 5+ years. Let me ask you guys this. If the Tigers win a WS in 2016 and then suck for 4 years, is that really that bad??

I'd happily take a WS accompanied by average baseball for a few years rather than what they've been doing.
 
rebbiv said:
just trying to be helpful here for those that want to know.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/misc/war/

war is an approximation stat. If a player has a 6 war, he actually could be anywhere from 5 to 7 war. Saying he is 18th on a list in an approximation stat, could mean he is actually 36th.

War also is by no means a be all, end all stat.

war = (batting runs + base running runs +fielding runs + positional adjustment + league adjustment +replacement runs) / (runs per win)

how many that use war understand what batting runs and fielding runs are? What are the components of each? What are their biases? Why should each of spot get a positional adjustment? Why should an offensive player for the nl get a different adjustment? Additionally, most of these components are counting stats and not rate stats. By this nature alone, a player with an additional 50 or so plate appearances, given the same ability, would then have the higher war.

For me, war is certainly a conservation starter. But that is when it stops. Because very few, including some sabermatics, fully understand war and it's issue of usage.
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+ 1,000,000
 
The Tigers fate is still going to depend largely on whether the rotation improves enough, and whether the bullpen can finally be relied upon. I have to say I feel OK about the bullpen at this point, but still have major concerns about the rotation. Everybody on it has potential to underperform.

JV - Back to being the ace. Is he ready to reclaim that status? Maybe that's what he needed all along was to be "the man", but too many negative trends for him the last few years to feel confident.

Zimmerman - A solid #2 on paper, but there's always the adjustment to the AL question.

Sanchez - Can he stay healthy? He also gave up homeruns like mad last year.

Norris - Still a young guy so relatively unknown

Pelfrey - Enough said

As far as Upton goes I'm not really going to cry about the economics of his contract. It seems like everyone of these free agent signings can be criticized for overpaying. He's an improvement over the trash we had in LF, so I view it as a good signing.
 
Tigers lose their 2nd and 3rd round picks this year for the Zimmerman/Upton signings also.
 
UMRules06 said:
Tigers lose their 2nd and 3rd round picks this year for the Zimmerman/Upton signings also.
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Yeah hate losing the picks but what are you going to do.. Tigers had to do something..Because there was no way we start spring training with Colliins, Moya, Maybin, Gose, and JD as the only outfielders.
 
dubbsco said:
I hear so much about how this team will be in financial purgatory in the future and it'll be brutal for them to recover for 5+ years. Let me ask you guys this. If the Tigers win a WS in 2016 and then suck for 4 years, is that really that bad??

I'd happily take a WS accompanied by average baseball for a few years rather than what they've been doing.
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This team is not a WS contender...they aren't even an odds on favorite to win the division in 2016. On paper this team is probably worse than the team going into the 2015 season all while mortgaging the future even more.
 
I have to say, this one really surprised me. I thought we'd wind up with Cespedes or nothing. I did hear whispers that the Tigers were in on Chris Davis, which was also surprising. I guess we can never doubt the influence of an old billionaire owner who wants a ring.

I don't love Upton or the deal, but it isn't my money, and this is better than Maybin/Collins/Aviles/???
 
dubbsco said:
I hear so much about how this team will be in financial purgatory in the future and it'll be brutal for them to recover for 5+ years. Let me ask you guys this. If the Tigers win a WS in 2016 and then suck for 4 years, is that really that bad??

I'd happily take a WS accompanied by average baseball for a few years rather than what they've been doing.
Click to expand...


You use "suck" in one paragraph and "average" in the next. I don't think there is a Tiger fan on earth that doesn't want them to win a World Series. What they don't want is for them to keep coming up short and then rebuild for 5-7 years.

The cupboard is bare. Our minor leagues is the worst in baseball, hands down. And now we lost our 2nd and 3rd round picks in 2016. It takes roughly 5 years for you to know what you have in any given draft. MLB is unique to NFL, NBA or even NHL, in so much as the franchise doesn't turn based on a single draft. There has never been a player drafted that immediately became rookie of the year. We cannot sustain our roster by continuing to buy players.

From a business standpoint, Illitch can afford to lose $20-40 Mil a year for a couple of years. Tops. After that, there will be a fire sale. Illitch did not get rich by making poor business decisions. For the moment, family members are placating him. If he dies or is declared mentally incompetent, there will either be a sale of the team or a fire sale.
 
Rebbiv said:
You use "suck" in one paragraph and "average" in the next. I don't think there is a Tiger fan on earth that doesn't want them to win a World Series. What they don't want is for them to keep coming up short and then rebuild for 5-7 years.

The cupboard is bare. Our minor leagues is the worst in baseball, hands down. And now we lost our 2nd and 3rd round picks in 2016. It takes roughly 5 years for you to know what you have in any given draft. MLB is unique to NFL, NBA or even NHL, in so much as the franchise doesn't turn based on a single draft. There has never been a player drafted that immediately became rookie of the year. We cannot sustain our roster by continuing to buy players.

From a business standpoint, Illitch can afford to lose $20-40 Mil a year for a couple of years. Tops. After that, there will be a fire sale. Illitch did not get rich by making poor business decisions. For the moment, family members are placating him. If he dies or is declared mentally incompetent, there will either be a sale of the team or a fire sale.
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I agree. I give him credit for his efforts considering where we were when he bought the team. I would love nothing more than a WS for him to add to legacy. Tigers will get sold more than likely by 2018. On a side note, what he has done to Woodward is amazing. The last piece of that crap down there was the Cass Corridor and he has eliminated that as well. I admire the man. I also think it is hard in a market such as ours to develop organizational depth and add free agents. I suppose it's one or the other. KC have done a pretty amazing job but now they will have to pay to stay relevant.

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I'm looking at what Avila has done this year with the outfield and I am scratching my head a bit. Instead of adding Maybin AND Upton wouldn't Dexter Fowler been an overall better fit?

edit...nevermind...looks like he is a terrible defensive CF. I was thinking because he is a switch hitter and his good OBP he would have been a good leadoff hitter.
 
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Listening to Inside Pitch (Casey Stern & Brad Lidge) this afternoon. They are saying Upton is a fantastic clutch hitter. They think there is a good chance to increase his OBP and may hit 30 HR, 100 RBI + 20 steals. He is a perfectionist and should be able to settle down being around Miggy and Victor. They compared it to how it helped JD. They also said he should benefit from not having to carry a team. They think this may be what Upton needs to take it to another level. They also said he is a little under rated defensively.

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The thing about Upton is that he is entering his prime at 28.

Cespedes is in the midst of it and has had a couple of good to great years and a few mediocre years. Upton is younger with a longer and better track record. Hitting with Miggy, Victor, JD, will help him improve. I mean, Miggy and V-Mart when healthy are the MODEL of consistency, they'll get off for a few games or even a week, but never for long, and JD is their pupil in that way, becoming more and more consistent.

Upton is heading into the best part of his career. Playing in Detroit is going to be good for him and good for Detroit.
 
JackCade said:
The thing about Upton is that he is entering his prime at 28.

Cespedes is in the midst of it and has had a couple of good to great years and a few mediocre years. Upton is younger with a longer and better track record. Hitting with Miggy, Victor, JD, will help him improve. I mean, Miggy and V-Mart when healthy are the MODEL of consistency, they'll get off for a few games or even a week, but never for long, and JD is their pupil in that way, becoming more and more consistent.

Upton is heading into the best part of his career. Playing in Detroit is going to be good for him and good for Detroit.
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so why haven't the rest of the Tigers hitters picked up on what Miggy & V-mart are doing?
 
I feel like the Tigers received pretty good value at the deadline last year. But heading into this season the only option was to continue to delve into free agency or settle for the fall. I'd be willing to eat a couple bad seasons but Illitch isnt. That is the reality.

Obviously our best teams were done in by a shit bullpen and or lack of timely hitting. Those are the breaks I guess
 
tomdalton22 said:
so why haven't the rest of the Tigers hitters picked up on what Miggy & V-mart are doing?
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I think it is a few things.. Talent, preparation, physical tools.

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JV was INJURED!
That is why he wasn't good in 2014, he was recovering from a surgery that has a 18 month recovery time for full strength. He was cleared to pitch, but he wouldn't regain full strength until the start or middle of 2015.
Then he strained his triceps.

No mysteries there.
 
What does JV have to do with anything mentioned in this thread?
 
Sbee said:
It's not my money so I love the move.

I heard he's related to Kate upton, maybe verlander pushed for this at Christmas dinner
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The question I have is when the next owner does not spend on long term contracts or high priced free agents, isn't this the same. You have no right to criticize because it isn't you money, right? I mean, you cannot have it both ways.
 
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