Tigers vs. rangers 9-29-15 Game 157

Mitchrapp · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
And just think...his extension he signed right after his MVP season kicks in NEXT year. Thanks DD!

He's the best player we have. Plus, I'm going to be excited when he goes into the HOF as a Tiger.

Rebbiv · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
jersey sales....lol

You're being ignorant and a jerk. There isn't a point of discussing it with you. We get you hate Cabrera and Verlander's contracts. But I would be signing Mike Trout, Bryce Harper and Clayton Kershaw to the same deals, if not greater.

They put fans in the stands and they sell jerseys. Laugh all you want, but this is part of the business.

tomdalton22 · Sep 30, 2015

Mitchrapp said:
He's the best player we have. Plus, I'm going to be excited when he goes into the HOF as a Tiger.

I understand...I just don't care too much about a player retiring a Tiger or going into the HOF as a Tiger. I am more interested in them having a good team...a team that can at least compete for the division.

tomdalton22 · Sep 30, 2015

Rebbiv said:
You're being ignorant and a jerk. There isn't a point of discussing it with you. We get you hate Cabrera and Verlander's contracts. But I would be signing Mike Trout, Bryce Harper and Clayton Kershaw to the same deals, if not greater.

They put fans in the stands and they sell jerseys. Laugh all you want, but this is part of the business.

an aging Miggy and an aging JV don't put fans in the seats if they are on a losing team. A winning team puts fans in the seats. If you don't think that is the case you are ignorant.

As far as Trout, Harper and Kershaw....

Trout 24
Kershaw 27 (extension when he was 25)
Harper 22

Mitchrapp · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
I understand...I just don't care too much about a player retiring a Tiger or going into the HOF as a Tiger. I am more interested in them having a good team...a team that can at least compete for the division.

They did or do you not remember the last 4 years. No one has a good team every year.

As far as not caring about great players retiring here or HOF that's a bummer. I can't imagine if the last few years of Al KALINE'S career was played elsewhere. Or the DP combo of Lou and Tram. They bring memories..

tomdalton22 · Sep 30, 2015

Mitchrapp said:
They did or do you not remember the last 4 years. No one has a good team every year.

As far as not caring about great players retiring here or HOF that's a bummer. I can't imagine if the last few years of Al KALINE'S career was played elsewhere. Or the DP combo of Lou and Tram. They bring memories..

The last several years were great but this year and possibly the next 5-7 might be terrible.

Rebbiv · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
an aging Miggy and an aging JV don't put fans in the seats if they are on a losing team. A winning team puts fans in the seats. If you don't think that is the case you are ignorant.

As far as Trout, Harper and Kershaw....

Trout 24
Kershaw 27 (extension when he was 25)
Harper 22

Cabrera signed his first extension with DET at age 24 to avoid arbitration, which is paying him $22 Mil for this year. He signed this coming extension at age 30 and right after winning back to back MVPs.

Verlander signed his first extension with DET at age 26 to avoid arbitration and carried him through 2014. He signed his current extension in March 2013 (30 years old), after back to back stellar season.

Mike Trout signed his extension at the beginning of last year (2014). This contract pays him $33.3 Mil from 2018-2020. The deal bought out his arbitration years. Clayton Kershaw signed his extension at age 25 in January 2014 to avoid arbitration. He is making $30+ per year from 2015-2020

If they were a Tigers and they got hurt, would you bemoan the fact we signed either one to an extension?

You just don't want to pay anyone good money past age 30, is that it?

tomdalton22 · Sep 30, 2015

Rebbiv said:
Cabrera signed his first extension with DET at age 24 to avoid arbitration, which is paying him $22 Mil for this year. He signed this coming extension at age 30 and right after winning back to back MVPs.

Verlander signed his first extension with DET at age 26 to avoid arbitration and carried him through 2014. He signed his current extension in March 2013 (30 years old), after back to back stellar season.

Mike Trout signed his extension at the beginning of last year (2014). This contract pays him $33.3 Mil from 2018-2020. The deal bought out his arbitration years. Clayton Kershaw signed his extension at age 25 in January 2014 to avoid arbitration. He is making $30+ per year from 2015-2020

If they were a Tigers and they got hurt, would you bemoan the fact we signed either one to an extension?

You just don't want to pay anyone good money past age 30, is that it?

That's not it at all. I don't want their extension kicking in STARTING at the age of 32 or 33. The Tigers had both of these guys in their prime years and under good contracts until they were 32/33. As you noted the timing of the extensions was at the worst possible time...right AFTER back to back MVPs and right after JV's CY/MVP season. The Tigers had them under control for 2 seasons when they signed the extensions.

Mitchrapp · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
That's not it at all. I don't want their extension kicking in STARTING at the age of 32 or 33. The Tigers had both of these guys in their prime years and under good contracts until they were 32/33. As you noted the timing of the extensions was at the worst possible time...right AFTER back to back MVPs and right after JV's CY/MVP season. The Tigers had them under control for 2 seasons when they signed the extensions.

But the thing is the contract extension are always before the current contract is up. So you either resign them or let the contracts run out and get nothing except maybe a pick, maybe. I'd be pretty bummed if Miggy wasn't here and we got nothing for it.

And to your point, wanting wins. Without either, we don't win anything. You can't get a replacement for Miggy.

tomdalton22 · Sep 30, 2015

Mitchrapp said:
But the thing is the contract extension are always before the current contract is up. So you either resign them or let the contracts run out and get nothing except maybe a pick, maybe. I'd be pretty bummed if Miggy wasn't here and we got nothing for it.

And to your point, wanting wins. Without either, we don't win anything. You can't get a replacement for Miggy.

Those are the tough calls and I think risks that would have been worth taking. Miggy would be a FA after this season and JV would have been one after last season.

Mitchrapp · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
Those are the tough calls and I think risks that would have been worth taking. Miggy would be a FA after this season and JV would have been one after last season.

But if you think we can't win now for 5-7 years how will it change by losing Miggy. Plus at this point, Miggy can still hit. Or is he not going to win another batting title?

Rebbiv · Sep 30, 2015

Mitchrapp said:
But the thing is the contract extension are always before the current contract is up. So you either resign them or let the contracts run out and get nothing except maybe a pick, maybe. I'd be pretty bummed if Miggy wasn't here and we got nothing for it.

And to your point, wanting wins. Without either, we don't win anything. You can't get a replacement for Miggy.

This right here. It isn't like we signed a 30-year old Cespedes to 7 years $210 Mil. They were long term Tigers when they were signed and had enjoyed their peak seasons with Detroit. They were rewarded for their stellar performance and the Tigers got discounts by resigning them. Both would have commanded more on the Free Agent market.

I will add that other teams deal with this to varying extents. Some bad (i.e. Ryan Howard, Matt Kemp) and some not so (Joe Mauer, Jayson Werth).

If Cabrera duplicates his last 4 seasons (including this off year of his), he will have 3,000 hits, 600 doubles, 500 HRs and 1,900 RBIs at the end of 2019 and age 36. He still is under contract for another 4 years after, possibly 6. If he gets to 1,904 RBIs, he will be 10th and has a very realistic chance to overtake Aaron's 2,297 RBIs. He is currently 854 away, which is doable over the next 8 years of his contract, 10 with vesting options. He is also within reach of the all time doubles. With conservative estimation, he will finish in the top 10 in hits, doubles and RBIs.

Again, for this franchise, that alone is worth the extra jersey sales and attendance. Verlander is a little harder to forecast for any significant milestones, but it has been a long time for this organization.

As far as signing some other team's free agent to long term contract...I am dead set against and right there with you. That is what they did with Prince Fielder and to a degree Anibal Sanchez.

tomdalton22 · Sep 30, 2015

Rebbiv said:
This right here. It isn't like we signed a 30-year old Cespedes to 7 years $210 Mil. They were long term Tigers when they were signed and had enjoyed their peak seasons with Detroit. They were rewarded for their stellar performance and the Tigers got discounts by resigning them. Both would have commanded more on the Free Agent market.

I will add that other teams deal with this to varying extents. Some bad (i.e. Ryan Howard, Matt Kemp) and some not so (Joe Mauer, Jayson Werth).

If Cabrera duplicates his last 4 seasons (including this off year of his), he will have 3,000 hits, 600 doubles, 500 HRs and 1,900 RBIs at the end of 2019 and age 36. He still is under contract for another 4 years after, possibly 6. If he gets to 1,904 RBIs, he will be 10th and has a very realistic chance to overtake Aaron's 2,297 RBIs. He is currently 854 away, which is doable over the next 8 years of his contract, 10 with vesting options. He is also within reach of the all time doubles. With conservative estimation, he will finish in the top 10 in hits, doubles and RBIs.

Again, for this franchise, that alone is worth the extra jersey sales and attendance. Verlander is a little harder to forecast for any significant milestones, but it has been a long time for this organization.

As far as signing some other team's free agent to long term contract...I am dead set against and right there with you. That is what they did with Prince Fielder and to a degree Anibal Sanchez.

so you think JV would have gotten more than $28M a year after his 2013 & 2014 seasons?

You think a team would sign Miggy right now to an 8 year $248M contract?

We will have to wait to see what players get this off season...but I am pretty sure nobody would have signed JV to that kind of deal after those two seasons. And signing Miggy, who will be 33, to an 8 year $248M contract after his past two injury plagued seasons...kind of doubt it.

Mitchrapp · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
so you think JV would have gotten more than $28M a year after his 2013 & 2014 seasons?

You think a team would sign Miggy right now to an 8 year $248M contract?

We will have to wait to see what players get this off season...but I am pretty sure nobody would have signed JV to that kind of deal after those two seasons. And signing Miggy, who will be 33, to an 8 year $248M contract after his past two injury plagued seasons...kind of doubt it.

Guarantee, even before some of his late season struggles.. 334 .438 .525 .963. Those are monster numbers.

tomdalton22 · Sep 30, 2015

Mitchrapp said:
Guarantee, even before some of his late season struggles.. 334 .438 .525 .963. Those are monster numbers.

Those numbers are great if you look at them in a vacuum. You also glossed over the age issue. 33 years old coming off two years in a row that he has had injury issues.

25 HR in 2014
17 HR in 2015

I don't think he would get that contract with his recent injury issues and his age...but I could be wrong.

Mitchrapp · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
Those numbers are great if you look at them in a vacuum. You also glossed over the age issue. 33 years old coming off two years in a row that he has had injury issues.

25 HR in 2014
17 HR in 2015

I don't think he would get that contract with his recent injury issues and his age...but I could be wrong.

685 At bats last year so he play, even if injured. He could get injured again but he might not. Doesn't mean he will be injured every year now. And it's not like he's only had a couple good years. Been great since birth. Get a team that can compete and wants to win a WS I could definitely see it. There's a market for him. At any price. And it doesn't mean it will work out but someone will want him.

Rebbiv · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
Those numbers are great if you look at them in a vacuum. You also glossed over the age issue. 33 years old coming off two years in a row that he has had injury issues.

25 HR in 2014
17 HR in 2015

I don't think he would get that contract with his recent injury issues and his age...but I could be wrong.

Add those league leading 52 doubles with those 25 HRs and the picture is quite different than what you are painting. Talk about cherry picking.

2013-Present Away

2nd to Trout in wRC+

2nd to Trout in wOBA

2nd to Trout in OPS

tomdalton22 · Sep 30, 2015

Rebbiv said:
Add those league leading 52 doubles with those 25 HRs and the picture is quite different than what you are painting. Talk about cherry picking.

2013-Present Away

2nd to Trout in wRC+

2nd to Trout in wOBA

2nd to Trout in OPS

ages 30, 31 & 32. Would have been a good time to jump off as he declines.

Mitchrapp · Sep 30, 2015

tomdalton22 said:
ages 30, 31 & 32. Would have been a good time to jump off as he declines.

I'm sorry but you must be new to baseball. The only world where Miggy doesn't get a big deal is bizarro world.

kalinecountry · Sep 30, 2015

Players get big contracts and salaries for what they have Done already,
This all changed when Marvin Miller took over and formed the Players Union.

Before that owners and GM's had the upper hand, When Mantle won the triple crown in 1956, the following 1957 season wasn't as great, and the GM wanted to give him a cut in salary,

Tom Dalton is living 50/60 years in the past. It is the way of sports, Most every team has contracts like the ones given to Cabrera, Verlander, in the upper 20 Millions to the Kinsler, Sanchez signings in the teens of millions.
Any team that doesn't do this a struggling to play .500 ball 9 out of 10 times.

You keep arguing ad nauseum about salaries, injuries, that happen to all players young or older, if you don't like it, stop watching, I've said it before, your shit grows old and weary some to all.

You probably don't like unions at all. Want to do away with minimum wages and pay someone $3 bucks an hour.

This shit is like going around the world 100's of times with someone we don't want to hear. Same shit day after week after month after year.

and you're probably going to come back with some slightly different spin on it to continue the argument that nobody gives a shit about.

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Tigers vs. rangers 9-29-15 Game 157

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