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"I wish Verlander was a True Ace"
Boogerlovejoy's thread started with Verlander's No-Hitter.
May 7, 2011
Don't you Chica??
These stupid no-hitters would mean something then.
(Sarcasm off)
Great game JV. This wont be his last No No either.
hahaha.
3.16 ERA, 55 Ks in 57 IP, .98 WHIP, 18 BB, averaging a little over 7 IP per start, guy is an ace.
Let's end this nonsense.
Obviously he won't keep up this current pace, but he is on pace for 272 IP this season.
Honestly, the guy will probably get to 240 IP again.
Endurance is always vastly underrated when talking about SP.
To be fair to the not an ace crowd (and I am not one of those)...they expect him to be dominant all of the time because he has such great stuff. So it gets frustrating when you see him get hit up or have that one bad inning. The criticism is based off of how talented and good everyone thinks he should be every 5th day.
For some but I always look at IP. He's just a horse.
He's also one of those guys where we have to stop talking about pitch count. Clearly he can handle it. Dude is throwing 100 mph in the ninth inning.
To an extent I agree with the frustration.
Really with his stuff, he should be the unquestioned best pitcher in baseball. He just does things that seem easily correctable that prevent him from getting there and that's frustrating.
But not being the best pitcher in baseball is nowhere near the same thing as "not an ace" the latter argument I don't even think can be justified unless your definition of "ace" is top 3 pitcher in the league.
No doubt. He can go 125 pitches in all 34 starts and I'm fine with it.
SO that was a shot at me?
Ok...well my opinion is that Verlander is a good pitcher that shows flashes of brilliance. He wouldn't be an ACE on half of the MLB teams. I think I even heard on the radio, before this game, that Verlander hadn't allowed less than 2 runs this year? He's got a 3.75 ERA for christ sakes.
p.s. You don't have to be an ACE type pitcher to get a no - hitter. In fact, I would think no-hitters might be jinx for being a good pitcher. How many pitchers in the last decade, with no hitters, will be in the HOF? I know Halladay will. If Lester continues to be this good, he might.
I don't think anyone ever thought, that he didn't have the capabilities, just the knowledge how to use it.
Verlander is a true ace. Great velocity, puts up good numbers and no has two no hitters.
Enlighten me then....who are the 15 pitchers you say are better than Verlander??
OK....8 starts and 8 quality starts. Every game but 2 (including today) he allowed exactly 3 earned runs. Once he allowed 2 in 9 and of course today 0 in 9. The thing you left out is so far this year he has not allowed more than 3 runs. If you don't consider Verlander an ace you must have a very small list of ace pitchers.
BTW...his era is 3.16 not 3.75.
Bottom line, anybody who doesn't think Verlander is an ace and top 10 pitcher is ignorant.
The last two years he's averaged 18.5 wins, about a 3.40 ERA, and a little over 230 IPs. Besides for one horrible year in 2008, the dude has been an absolute stud since he came into the league, and is definitely an ACE.
So by your standards are there only like 2-3 aces in the league today? Please name the 15 teams and their #1s who are better than JV?
Still would love to see who Chico has as better pitchers then Verlander. He's the type of guy who would say guys like Oswalt/Lester/Jimenez are all better then Verlander.
There's no way Justin Verlander isn't an Ace.
would say Lester and Verlander are on the same page right now.....Ulbado, no. He's not up there. He needs to put it together. Oswalt, yes. Of course...If you don't think so, you are ignorant.
Here is more than 15 guys that either have been better than Verlander in the last 5 years. He can't even break 3.00 for christ sakes. I would compare him to Kurado or Gallardo.....Nothing sexy, but brilliant at times. He's definitely better than Anibal or Wandy. in terms of consistency.
Halladay Linceum Johnson Sabathia Lee Hudson (And he's 35 for christ sakes) Hernandez
Hamel Wainwright Carpenter Kershaw Weaver Hanson Grienke Santana Cain Haren
Peavy & Webb (Even with injuries last year, top 15 pitchers of decade)
heck...how could you say Verlander has had a better career thus far than Zambrano?
Young Guys that have already look like they are gonna be better than JV (and I won't even add Steven Strasburg) Garcia (24) Latos (23) Hellickson Price B. Anderson
just to name a few
LOL.
Ok Curtis i will give it a shot.. I will go down your list. I will give you the first two so far. Halladay, and Lincecum are better then Justin. But it is interesting to note the Tim in 11 starts is only 5-3 verses American league teams with a 3.99 ERA. So I Guess I am giving you Tim even though he pitches in the crapper league. Johnson is ok for the list but he needs a 5 year period to truly be great. He is better then Tim in verses the American league with a 6-2 record and a stellar 3.38 Era. You know what since I am tired I will give you the next 4 guys your list. Sabbathia, Lee, Hudson, and Hernandez. But truly out of these four only Felix is better then Justin. Lee has strange carrer numbers in my opinion. Sabbthia, and Justin are equal.( Justin can only dream of that offensive support.) Hamels is a no. Justin is way better then him. He is terrible verse the AL. 5-8 with a 4.62 era. Starting with wainwright Justin is better then the everyone that you list except Santana maybe Haren.. Justin is better then wainwright, Kershaw, Carpenter, Hanson, weaver, Grenkie, Cain, Webb, and Peavy. I don't count the last five ypung guys you picked.. Let me see them after 5 years. If Justin pitched in the NL his numbers would be sick. He is all-time verses the NL He is 12-2 with a 3.43 era. My bet is GM's would draft Justin over half of the guys on your list. It is a pretty easy call. Guy's who get hurt get big mark's down for my grades.
Your list stinks. Consult this link as to why it stinks.
He just turned 28 a couple months ago!!!
He has not entered his prime yet and is still learning how to pitch. This guy is destined to be a great great pitcher. His stuff isn't going anywhere, Some young pitchers can throw 100 for a year or 2, but he's had the same velocity for 6 seasons now. He also has a great great curve. Two ++ pitches and he has developed a good slider and what could be a great change up. He's just coming into his own.
If Justin ever puts it totally together he'll be the best pitcher in baseball for several seasons and he'll be a HOFer.
According to fangraphs rankings of a pitchers value, from 2009 until present (2009 being when I think he became an ace) only one player in the entire game ranks above Justin in WAR, and that is Roy Halladay.
For those of you who care about dumb stats like wins (he's 3rd in that time frame) or ERA (25th, even tho ERA is an inherantly flawed stat).
He's #3 in K's in this time as well.
But stats that truly predict and measure the worth of a pitcher (which ERA can't do because of how many things not in a pitchers control that factor into ERA), JV ranks 7th with a 2.94 FIP and 11th with a 3.34 xFIP. (for those who don't know, FIP and xFIP have a FAR greater coorelation with future success than ERA, which has a very very poor coorelation).
Some other numbers show JV to be 5th in innings over this time (longevity), and 6th with a 1.16 WHIP.
He also ranks in the top 15 during this time frame with a .230 OBA.
Does anyone wanna argue Justin's ace status? I'd LOVE to hear an argument against it that actually uses FACTS to back it up.
Verlander is a stud, but he's also frustrating to watch at times. In terms of stuff, he's probably got the best in the game. He's a horse too. The questions creep in with ERA and flaky innings and starts. I believe he'll improve here in the next few seasons and go down as the greatest Tigers starter ever when it's all said and done though. Scherzer could well be one of the Tiger greats too if he keeps up what he's done here. I'm excited to watch these guys and hopefully see Turner, Oliver, Porcello, etc. fill out a great young rotation for the next decade ala the early nineties Braves.
I think your stats are exactly why there is a divide on JV. I think he's solidly in the 5-10 range with the ability to be #1 as he gets older and tweaks his approach toward pitching complete games instead of racking up Ks. Others say 15 or understand because of his ERA. We also seem to be in an era of great pitchers where many teams have multiple 'ace' types, so the perception of how good he is is also a bit skewed by that.
Quality Starts and ERA are faulty stats eh?
Game SEVEN in the WORLD SERIES against the Boston Red Sox. If I had the worst hitting team in baseball, I would be more comfortable if almost ALL of those were on the mound and not Justin Verlander. I'm not saying Verlander is a bad pitcher, but you never know which Verlander you get and more so, you usually get 3 ER or more.
LOL.
Oh, I get it.
You're a r*****d.
Yeah, a quality start is more like a mediocre start.
And ERA is heavily influenced by defense, ball park, and luck, which are factors outside of a pitchers control
It's a pretty poor stat and the majority MLB teams don't really use it to judge performance anymore.
Yeah, making stuff up doesn't help your point, it only weakens any argument you make before and after.
1. So you pick Tim L, Halladay, Johnson, Felix, Santana, Haren as sure picks. That's fair. You're opinion is always suggested. But unrealistic. Just like when you text me this week and said Lions win the Superbowl next year.
2. Cliff Lee and Grienke are better pitchers than Verlander would be the #1 if Verlander were on their team. Weaver is already proving to be better.
3. I think you are giving WAY too much look into the whole NL thing. Carpenter and Wainwright are great pitchers. Kershaw and Hanson are the real deal.
4. It's like it someone blamed spacious Comerica part for Verlander being able to keep his ERA lower. That a good excuses for you?
5. I read somewhere that Peavy was a top ten pitcher of this decade. So I looked at his stats and boy do I wish Verlander could do that for a decade.
6. Verlander was 28th in baseball in run support, less than 1 run behind CC. What was CC's run support like all those years in Cleveland?
LOL.
So what stats ISN'T affected by defense, ball park, and luck? What about wind, body temperature, and what they ate for lunch?
Fruit Salad.
I'm not a Tigers fan, but if I'm not mistaken, over the last two years, Verlander has pitched something like 460 innings and put up a 1.15 WHIP, winning like 35 games. Maybe he's not a future hall of fame candidate, but in today's game, in the AL, he's an Ace. I'm not going to get into the "who's better" game, but the list isn't very long. Put him in the NL and he would absolutely dominate. It's easy to lose sight of how good some of the guys on your own team are, when all you see of other team's stars is highlights. At the same time, it can be easy to get a little homerish and start down play how good some other guys are. For instance, CC, is legitimately great. He might be getting offensive support on the Yankees, but he was pretty great on Cleveland and Milwaukee too. I hate the Yankees, but you have to give that guy his due.
How often does Verlander give up more than 3 ER?
tERA, FIP, xFIP, and SIERA are all much less affected by factors outside of a pitchers control. Those stats focus on what pitchers can control to judge performance.
1. Do you have any idea what WPA actually is?
2. Check the link again, Verlander ranks 6th in WPA.
3. He ranks 7th in RE24.
4. He ranks 1st in WPA/LI
5. FAIL
I agree. A lot of homerish here. Verlander is a good pitcher and even with TWO no-hitters, he's not a shoe in for the HOF. He hasn't had a 20 win season, had a CY Young, nor stayed below 2.00 on ERA for a season. I'm glad he's on my team, but I would love for him to be our #2.
The NL argument is a little silly. He's had benefits pitching at Comerica. He also got tons of run support last year. How would he be at Coors Field? Yeah, he gets to face a pitcher twice, but if you are an ace, the bottom of any lineup should feel like pitching to "pitchers."
But come on...
Who would you want game 7 in the world series against Boston? CC or Verlander? Lee or Verlander? Carpenter or Verlander? Non-tigers fans would be picking the latter.
LOL.
You realize Comerica isn't a pitchers park don't you?
It's pretty much nuetral, with a very very very slight edge for hitters.
As I've said before, JV's "inflated" ERA is due to a handful of really horrendous innings every year. If he could start avoiding some of those then we won't be having this conversation...that being said...
Both of his no-hitters were very different. Against the Brewers he was young and raw and did it on pure stuff. 4 BBs though, with 12 Ks...could go under the category of "just wild enough to be effective."
Yesterday the velocity was there and he was hitting his SPOTS with it whereas sometimes he's usually a little wild when throwing that hard. Only the 1 walk yesterday, which was a borderline ball 4 (thanks to another umpire for robbing a perfect game, btw.) Other than that, teams were't getting even getting DEEP enough into at-bats to strikeout. They were hacking at the high fastball and popping it up or grounding out on the slider because he was locating both beautifully.
So Verlander is an ace, in any case.
I like how you pinpoint the stats you want.
How about CLUTCH?
He's not even on there.
and he's even in the negatives.
FAIL
LOL.
AL lineups are fundamentally better. It's not just the bottom of the lineup issue. Whatever benefit he has from pitching at Comerica doesn't make up for the lineup disparity. For Verlander to be your #2, you would need a guy that is a top 5 cy young candidate every year. Look, I'm not saying it's not a nice aspiration, but it's not all that realistic either.
I'm sure everybody would take Lee over Verlander.
Carpenter? haha, that's a joke.
Sabathia could go either way, him and Verlander are pretty much even.
Not to mention no Hill or Batista.
LOL.
You're the one who said you clicked on win probability.
WPA stands for win probability added.
You're the one who choose that stat, I just corrected you on where he finished there.
And clutch? haha, it's nowhere near as important or telling a stat as any of the ones I listed.
Look at other pitchers who have a negative clutch rating: Weaver, Lincecum, Lee, Johnson, Kershaw, Oswalt.
You should quit while you're hopelessly behind.
LOL @ Chico's under 2.00 ERA criteria. You are clueless. That's only happened five times in the last 25yrs and three times it was done by Maddux. The other two were Pedro and Clemens
I meant under 3.00.....It was a mistake.
LOL.
"Who would you want game 7 in the world series against Boston? CC or Verlander? Lee or Verlander? Carpenter or Verlander? Non-tigers fans would be picking the latter".
signed, Jack Morris.
And silence.
ERA is still relevant. It might not be the best way to judge performance, but there is something to be said for qualitative factors when it comes to pitchers. There are certain guys that are just good at making big pitches to get out of jams. They rise to the occasion. It's difficult, but not impossible, to capture that in stats. Yeah, WHIP matters, ERA+ matters, but if nothing else, there is a pretty direct correlation between ERA and other more advanced metrics. It's rare for someone to have a 2.4 ERA and bad peripherals over the course of a season.
Not if your ScottHall....It is the basis of whether or not you make it to the Hall ffs. I mean JV hasnt had a below 2 era yet....I mean ERA is #1 and Wins is #2.
I'm sure everybody would take Lee over Verlander.
Based on age, no I'd rather have the 28 year old.
In addition, I think the stats clearly show JV to be the superior pitcher to Sabathia since CC has become a Yankee and has been a bit longer in the tooth.
Clay Buchholz anyone? Others close include Jaime Garcia, Hudson and the amazing R.A. Dickey. I would say it's actually very common for a handful of pitchers to have very very lucky years.
And I would also take JV over CC, but it has been pretty close over the past couple of seasons, so if somebody were to take CC I wouldn't argue with them.
I always knew you were a troll Chico but now you just verified it for everyoen who didn't know.
EDIT ADD-ON
What if Verlander pitched in the NL where Chico is getting most of his guys from. How much better do you guys think his numbers would be? Every game he would have at least an additional 3 strikeouts from the pitchers or so. Then most NL teams have very weak bottom of the orders compared to the AL. And he wouldn't have to face a DH anymore.
first, it's shoo-in, not shoe in
I don't know of many pitchers at 28 that were hall of fame locks.
if you look at his numbers this year, he has a WHIP of .98, which is excellent.
Verlander is 12-2 lifetime verses the NL with a 3.43 Era in 17 career starts. 107.2 Innings pitched and a 111 strikeouts. The dude would dominate in the inferior hitting league. By the way Curtis I said the Lions would win the Super Bowl in 2013-2015.. I am pretty sure I said 2014.. I said they would be 10-6 next year with no mention on winning the super bowl. No need to lie about things now. Can't a long suffering Lion fan get excited about things.. Again of your list most Gm's would draft Justin ahead of over half of your list. Throwing out his 2005 season of 0-2 he is 86-53. Not many pitchers have a 6 year stretch like his. He is a horse that every team would like to have.
I've been here for probably 8-10 years. Yeah. I'm a troll.
Sorry if I dont' think Verlander is the greatest thing since slice bread.. He's a good pitcher but I never say, "Well, Tigers will probably win tomorrow" whenever he's pitching.
LOL.
So wouldn't that mean he would be outside the top 15? 6 year stretch of what? A lot of strikeouts and nothing else to show for it?
LOL.
Curtis, You just can't stand it when you are wrong. We give you evidence and you just dig your heels in. It is pretty funny sometimes.
You have no clue what Verlander would do in the NL. How do you know he couldn't adjust? Maybe he goes to a hitter friendly park and struggles? And Ace shouldn't have to worry about the bottom of the order. THEY ARE ACES...right?
LOL.
Every start he's had this year is a quality start.
Still silent.
what evidence?? No Cy Youngs? No 20 wins season? Can't even have one season under 3.00 ERA?
How about the fact that this week was his first SHUTOUT of the season or even 1 run allowed. (No Shut outs last year)
How about the fact is that no hitters generally don't involve hall of fame pitchers.
Jesus. He's a good pitcher but he's not a sure fire ace.
LOL.
Verlander is 12-2 lifetime verses the NL with a 3.43 Era in 17 career starts. 107.2 Innings pitched and a 111 strikeouts. The dude would dominate in the inferior hitting league. I guess that is a pretty good sample size.. .
Nah not to Chico it isn't.
Half the people on your list are not better than Verlander.. Tommy Hanson comes to mind.. And it's debatable between Cain as well..
Valuing QS over IP is a joke.
FIP, xFIP, tERA, and SIERA are all better than ERA to judge performance as well.
Verlander is a top 10 pitcher, and there's really no argument against that.
Ok so aces and guys who are better then Verlander have to have a CYY win 20 games or have an ERA under 3.00? I wish I felt like going through your whole list and breaking it down. I went thru some. Haren hasn't done any of those three things. Weaver only once has had an ERA lower then 3 and has never won 20 games either. Johnson hasn't won anymore then 15 and has only once had an ERA lower then 3. So how can you praise all of these guys and bash Verlander?
I guess we won't know til 20 years. I hope he turns into a bad @$$ but at this time being, I would never bet my money on Tigers if he were pitching.
LOL.
Despite the fact that in 173 career starts, the Tigers are 101-72 in those games. On a 162 game scale, that comes out to 95-67.
Crap man if this whole thing is about HOF and Verlander then yeah you are right he isn't a HOF pitcher yet. Only an idiot would say he is. The baseball HOF is the hardest of the 4 majors to get into.
But what I was going off of is you saying that guys like Johnson/Hanson/Cain/Weaver/Kershaw were all better then Verlander. And a lot of those guys either haven't been anymore consistent or worse then Verlander. So what I was asking is how can those guys be better when they haven't shown it yet?
thats just your homerism talking. There is NOTHING that separates Verlander from those guys you listed. Johnson & Weaver in my mind is better though. Kershaw will end up having a better career. Juror still out on Cain and Hanson. You probably just don't like them cause they don't K people.
LOL.
Weaver and Verlander both started playing MLB in 2006.
What sticks out to me is Justin has thrown a lot more innings 171 more
Wins Justin 86 wins, Weaver 70
Justin has almost 200 more strikeouts
All the rest of the stats are almost the same.
Justin is better end of discussion.
Though for their careers, Weaver isn't too far behind Verlander's numbers. FIP favors JV 3.59 to 3.66 and xFIP favors JV 3.92 to 4.06.
Durability gives the edge to JV.
As I said in another thread, durability is ridiculously underrated when discussing SP.
Verlander has pitched a ton more innings than Weaver at a slightly better performance level since they started in 2006. His WAR bears that out.
I'm a Dodgers fan as well and think they have two great young arms that just need to put it all together. They have both showen what they can do at times but they are so young they still have time to grow even more.
And I do agree overall that there are a few guys who I would rather have then Verlander. Like I said in another post he has somethings he still needs to learn as well. But like the Dodgers twins he is young enough to still grow. Its not like we're talking about him being past his prime and this is as good as he's going to get. He's just now hitting his prime years.
Exactly. My boy Chico is very ignorant. Sorry, bro, but you are.
Epic gold. It really doesn't get any better.
This thread is basically 6 pages of everybody on the board ragging on Chico and Chico attempting to defend his position largely in an unsuccessful manner. lol.
From 2006 -- Verlander's first full season with the Tigers -- through 2010, nine pitchers have won the Cy Young Award in the American and National leagues combined.
The Giants' Tim Lincecum is a two--time winner. The other three winners in the National League are Brandon Webb, Jake Peavy and Roy Halladay.
The American League's five winners are Johan Santana, C.C. Sabbathia, Cliff Lee, Zack Greinke and Felix Hernandez.
Verlander's won-lost record for those five years is 83-50. His winning percentage is 62.4.
Only Halladay (90-43) and Sabbathia (88-43) have won more games. In winning percentage, Verlander ranks sixth.
Ahead of him in winning percentage are Webb (56-25, 69.1), Lincecum (56-25, 69.1), Halladay (90-43, 67.7) Sabbathia (88-43, 67.1) and Santana (74-44, 62.7).
Behind Verlander are Lee (67-44, 60.4), Peavy (56-43, 56.6), Hernandez (67-49, 57.8) and Greinke (46-39, 54.1).
Of the last nine Cy Young winners, Sabbathia and Halladay are the only one's who matches Verlander's record of winning 17 or more games four times.
Another dominating outing by a true #2 pitcher, right Chica?
Tell me, who leads baseball in your favorite stat to bash Verlander on, Quality Starts??
She won't come around while Verly is going good Booger..you know that.
She ( Chica ) will show up though when he has a bad outing and tell everyone once again Verly isn't a true #1.
Sad, but true.
never been hurt or misses his turn. He's figured out how to be a complete pitcher. Hes 28. and the kid with the electric stuff has become a man. Close to 90 wins already the future looks very bright for JV............. A true ace?........ hmmmmm.........A better question would be. Will he be the best in the game over the next 5 yrs?
I really enjoy this thread.
Pretty sure he's got the lowest WHIP of any qualified pitcher in baseball right now. I wish he was a true ace.
still love that list of guys who are better then he is. Half those guys could only hope to be JV. Great pitchers on his list but no way are they better then JV.
I think it's JV and Halladay and everyone else is battling for 3rd.
maybe chica should run his thread on the Indians board or the Sox,Twins and Royals boards. if you throw in the hate factor some may agree with him..............nah..............im pretty sure the general consensus would be ..........you're an *****.
bump-------for Chica.
J.V. driving the AL Cy Young bus right now......
I notice chica hasn't commented in a while.
Wonder why??
Bump.......for JV because he is the best pitcher IN ALL OF BASEBALL right now.
The rediculous question of weather or not he is an ace is over. It's a fact now. The only question remaining is if he will win the Cy Young this year?
I'll say yes.
This thread is epic.
so who is it that thinks verlander isn't an ace??
bump.
Another terrible outing by Verlander. He should be ashamed of himself.
I know. Did you see him walk that one guy. JV is pathetic. I would take 237 other pitchers over that guy. Here is my list... Mike Moore Bill Gullickson Greg Gohr Scott Aldred Justin Thompson
Steve Sparks Matt Anderson Joe Boever.....just for the palm ball Shane Loux
Milt Cuyler....im sure he could have been a better pitcher than JV....just wasn't given the chance. He would have had a great walk and HR rate.
Just to name a few.....
How'd I do Chica???
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057
Justin Verlander Best Tiger's Pitcher since....
from baseball reference
Check out the MLB top-10 lists for 2009-2011 combined that appear at the bottom of this post (stats through June 24 -- not including Verlander's 14-K gem on 6/25). Verlander ranks 3rd in IP, 6th in Wins Above Replacement (WAR), 2nd in strikeouts (actually 1st now), and 2nd in WHIP (min. 300 IP).
The list of Tigers pitchers who had multiple years at Verlander's level isn't very long. At age 28, in just his 6th full season, Verlander already has 5 seasons of at least 3.5 WAR. Only 3 pitchers ever had more such years as Tigers: Mickey Lolich and Hal Newhouser had 6 each, and the steady, unheralded Tommy Bridges had 8. Jim Bunning and Frank Lary (who were teammates) had 5 each; Jack Morris only had 4.
Verlander is well on his way to his 2nd season over 5 WAR. Only Newhouser (6) and Lolich (3) had more 5-WAR seasons.
And he's more than halfway to 7 WAR this year. In their 110-year history, there have been just 11 seasons at 7+ WAR by a Tigers pitcher: 3 by Newhouser, 2 by Dizzy Trout, 1 each by 6 other pitchers, including Denny McLain, in 1969 (yes, '69). The last 7-WAR season by a Tiger was by (prepare for a shock) Justin Thompson in 1997.
And not to gloss over the oldest pitching stat, Wins: If Verlander gets to 18 wins this year (he has 10 now), it would be his 4th such year, tying him with Lolich and Morris. Only George Mullin (7, with Ty Cobb's gang), Hooks Dauss (5, ditto) and Newhouser (5) have more 18-win seasons as Tigers.
The Matt Cain, Dan Haren, and Tommy Hanson comments are the best. I almost fell out of my chair on those comparisons.
Chica is already on record as saying this year wont count since it's the "Year of the Pitcher". Ignoring the fact that if it is the year of the pitcher (which it isn't) then there would be even more competition for the Cy Young so it should mean more this season.
Chica can't admit he is wrong because by any measure Verlander is a top 5 pitcher in baseball over the last 3 years, top 5 since he's come into the league and this year is the best. Yes, this season so far Verlander has pitched better than Halladay or anyone else. He's the best pitcher in baseball this year. Let's just enjoy it because he is doing things no Tiger has done in a long long time.
He has been consistent, though.
Since his rookie season: Top 15
Wins-3rd
ERA- 21st
WHIP-15th
IP-6th
K-4th
WAR-4th
09-11: Top 7
Wins- 3rd
ERA- 16th
WHIP- 3rd
IP-3rd
K- 1st
WAR- 2nd
This year: Top 3
Wins- 1st
ERA- 5th
WHIp- 1st
IP- 1st
K- 2nd
WAR- 4th
I would really like to know Chica's definition of an "Ace". I have a feeling that there wouldn't be many that live up to his standards.
There aren't many. I'm thinking surefire hall of famers. 4-5 CY Young type seasons.
LOL.
Well, you should call it a Chica-ace.....or a Super Duper Ace! This is what almost all other baseball fans consider an ace (I just googled it and it made sense)
In baseball, an ace is the best starting pitcher of any team and nearly always the first pitcher in his starting rotation. Barring injury or exceptional circumstances, an ace usually always starts on Opening Day. In addition, aces are usually preferred to start crucial playoff games, sometimes on three days rest.
IF that the definition you want, go for it. I hope not because then you are putting Verlander on the same page as Hochevar, Livian Hernandez, Maholm, Guthrie........
Some teams' ace just isn't very good. Some teams may have 3 (Phillies). The Tigers just happen to have one that is a top 10 pitcher in all of baseball.
Wow just when it can't get any funnier Chico comes back. Still wonder how guys like Hanson and Cain who haven't been anymore consistent then Verlander are aces but not Verlander. And how Zambrano could be equal to Verlander. Now hes saying Sheilds and some other guys are on the same level as Verlander now. So what have they proven then Chico if you want to look at track records?
Lasty yes you are a troll and I don't care how long you've been around for. I know plenty of trolls from other boards that have been around just as long as you have doesn't make them any less of trolls.
Who, in your opinion Chica, are today's aces?? Also, who is next in line to be an ACE in your opinion?? (not that laughable list of pitchers you would take over JV......good comedy though)
I'd like to mention that today was the first home start of Justin's I've not been to since the Boston one (ya know, where the Sox scored a whole 0 runs in 7.2 innings). So that means I went to 3 games where Justin pitched 25 innings, allowed just 11 hits, ONE run, and K'd 36 batters. Then today, I had to watch a home start on TV. He didn't have his "A" game and still managed to hold a red freaking hot offense to 1 run in 7 innings.
Just saying, if you don't think he's an ace yet (2 months after this thread started) then you're growing more and more ignorant.
He was an ace before the season. He just took two more steps forward.
According to Chica...you need to have "4 or 5" Cy Young seasons before you become an "ACE".
I would love to know what pitchers he currently considers an ace.
Bump....because I can and Chica is still an ****t.
I see you JV!!!
This thread keeps getting better and better....lol.
Woooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
To top off this subject....I think last night was the proving point of this whole ace/not an ace argument.
Did JV have his best stuff......NO. That pitch sequence to Dunn in the 1st inning was awful. He was all over the zone most of the night and his change up was not nearly his best.
However, being an ACE is more than just stuff. Last night, he battled through a night he was off, against a team that usually hits him well, and got a W.
That 8th inning will go down in Verlander lore as his "arrival" inning (to me at least). Tigers got the lead in the top of the inning, he took the ball, stepped out on the mound and basicall said "you can't f****** hit me"....and got us a BIG win against a division opponent.
Thats what and ACE does....and that's what he is.
End of discussion.
I'm just gonna continue to add and add to this post when I feel like it. Almost pitched another no-hitter today in outdueling Jared Weaver. Now leading the AL in wins and K's. ERA sitting at 2.25. Too bad he's not an ace tho haha.
Boogerlovejoy's thread started with Verlander's No-Hitter.
May 7, 2011
Don't you Chica??
These stupid no-hitters would mean something then.
(Sarcasm off)
Great game JV. This wont be his last No No either.
hahaha.
3.16 ERA, 55 Ks in 57 IP, .98 WHIP, 18 BB, averaging a little over 7 IP per start, guy is an ace.
Let's end this nonsense.
Obviously he won't keep up this current pace, but he is on pace for 272 IP this season.
Honestly, the guy will probably get to 240 IP again.
Endurance is always vastly underrated when talking about SP.
To be fair to the not an ace crowd (and I am not one of those)...they expect him to be dominant all of the time because he has such great stuff. So it gets frustrating when you see him get hit up or have that one bad inning. The criticism is based off of how talented and good everyone thinks he should be every 5th day.
For some but I always look at IP. He's just a horse.
He's also one of those guys where we have to stop talking about pitch count. Clearly he can handle it. Dude is throwing 100 mph in the ninth inning.
To an extent I agree with the frustration.
Really with his stuff, he should be the unquestioned best pitcher in baseball. He just does things that seem easily correctable that prevent him from getting there and that's frustrating.
But not being the best pitcher in baseball is nowhere near the same thing as "not an ace" the latter argument I don't even think can be justified unless your definition of "ace" is top 3 pitcher in the league.
No doubt. He can go 125 pitches in all 34 starts and I'm fine with it.
SO that was a shot at me?
Ok...well my opinion is that Verlander is a good pitcher that shows flashes of brilliance. He wouldn't be an ACE on half of the MLB teams. I think I even heard on the radio, before this game, that Verlander hadn't allowed less than 2 runs this year? He's got a 3.75 ERA for christ sakes.
p.s. You don't have to be an ACE type pitcher to get a no - hitter. In fact, I would think no-hitters might be jinx for being a good pitcher. How many pitchers in the last decade, with no hitters, will be in the HOF? I know Halladay will. If Lester continues to be this good, he might.
I don't think anyone ever thought, that he didn't have the capabilities, just the knowledge how to use it.
Verlander is a true ace. Great velocity, puts up good numbers and no has two no hitters.
Enlighten me then....who are the 15 pitchers you say are better than Verlander??
OK....8 starts and 8 quality starts. Every game but 2 (including today) he allowed exactly 3 earned runs. Once he allowed 2 in 9 and of course today 0 in 9. The thing you left out is so far this year he has not allowed more than 3 runs. If you don't consider Verlander an ace you must have a very small list of ace pitchers.
BTW...his era is 3.16 not 3.75.
Bottom line, anybody who doesn't think Verlander is an ace and top 10 pitcher is ignorant.
The last two years he's averaged 18.5 wins, about a 3.40 ERA, and a little over 230 IPs. Besides for one horrible year in 2008, the dude has been an absolute stud since he came into the league, and is definitely an ACE.
So by your standards are there only like 2-3 aces in the league today? Please name the 15 teams and their #1s who are better than JV?
Still would love to see who Chico has as better pitchers then Verlander. He's the type of guy who would say guys like Oswalt/Lester/Jimenez are all better then Verlander.
There's no way Justin Verlander isn't an Ace.
would say Lester and Verlander are on the same page right now.....Ulbado, no. He's not up there. He needs to put it together. Oswalt, yes. Of course...If you don't think so, you are ignorant.
Here is more than 15 guys that either have been better than Verlander in the last 5 years. He can't even break 3.00 for christ sakes. I would compare him to Kurado or Gallardo.....Nothing sexy, but brilliant at times. He's definitely better than Anibal or Wandy. in terms of consistency.
Halladay Linceum Johnson Sabathia Lee Hudson (And he's 35 for christ sakes) Hernandez
Hamel Wainwright Carpenter Kershaw Weaver Hanson Grienke Santana Cain Haren
Peavy & Webb (Even with injuries last year, top 15 pitchers of decade)
heck...how could you say Verlander has had a better career thus far than Zambrano?
Young Guys that have already look like they are gonna be better than JV (and I won't even add Steven Strasburg) Garcia (24) Latos (23) Hellickson Price B. Anderson
just to name a few
LOL.
Ok Curtis i will give it a shot.. I will go down your list. I will give you the first two so far. Halladay, and Lincecum are better then Justin. But it is interesting to note the Tim in 11 starts is only 5-3 verses American league teams with a 3.99 ERA. So I Guess I am giving you Tim even though he pitches in the crapper league. Johnson is ok for the list but he needs a 5 year period to truly be great. He is better then Tim in verses the American league with a 6-2 record and a stellar 3.38 Era. You know what since I am tired I will give you the next 4 guys your list. Sabbathia, Lee, Hudson, and Hernandez. But truly out of these four only Felix is better then Justin. Lee has strange carrer numbers in my opinion. Sabbthia, and Justin are equal.( Justin can only dream of that offensive support.) Hamels is a no. Justin is way better then him. He is terrible verse the AL. 5-8 with a 4.62 era. Starting with wainwright Justin is better then the everyone that you list except Santana maybe Haren.. Justin is better then wainwright, Kershaw, Carpenter, Hanson, weaver, Grenkie, Cain, Webb, and Peavy. I don't count the last five ypung guys you picked.. Let me see them after 5 years. If Justin pitched in the NL his numbers would be sick. He is all-time verses the NL He is 12-2 with a 3.43 era. My bet is GM's would draft Justin over half of the guys on your list. It is a pretty easy call. Guy's who get hurt get big mark's down for my grades.
Your list stinks. Consult this link as to why it stinks.
He just turned 28 a couple months ago!!!
He has not entered his prime yet and is still learning how to pitch. This guy is destined to be a great great pitcher. His stuff isn't going anywhere, Some young pitchers can throw 100 for a year or 2, but he's had the same velocity for 6 seasons now. He also has a great great curve. Two ++ pitches and he has developed a good slider and what could be a great change up. He's just coming into his own.
If Justin ever puts it totally together he'll be the best pitcher in baseball for several seasons and he'll be a HOFer.
According to fangraphs rankings of a pitchers value, from 2009 until present (2009 being when I think he became an ace) only one player in the entire game ranks above Justin in WAR, and that is Roy Halladay.
For those of you who care about dumb stats like wins (he's 3rd in that time frame) or ERA (25th, even tho ERA is an inherantly flawed stat).
He's #3 in K's in this time as well.
But stats that truly predict and measure the worth of a pitcher (which ERA can't do because of how many things not in a pitchers control that factor into ERA), JV ranks 7th with a 2.94 FIP and 11th with a 3.34 xFIP. (for those who don't know, FIP and xFIP have a FAR greater coorelation with future success than ERA, which has a very very poor coorelation).
Some other numbers show JV to be 5th in innings over this time (longevity), and 6th with a 1.16 WHIP.
He also ranks in the top 15 during this time frame with a .230 OBA.
Does anyone wanna argue Justin's ace status? I'd LOVE to hear an argument against it that actually uses FACTS to back it up.
Verlander is a stud, but he's also frustrating to watch at times. In terms of stuff, he's probably got the best in the game. He's a horse too. The questions creep in with ERA and flaky innings and starts. I believe he'll improve here in the next few seasons and go down as the greatest Tigers starter ever when it's all said and done though. Scherzer could well be one of the Tiger greats too if he keeps up what he's done here. I'm excited to watch these guys and hopefully see Turner, Oliver, Porcello, etc. fill out a great young rotation for the next decade ala the early nineties Braves.
I think your stats are exactly why there is a divide on JV. I think he's solidly in the 5-10 range with the ability to be #1 as he gets older and tweaks his approach toward pitching complete games instead of racking up Ks. Others say 15 or understand because of his ERA. We also seem to be in an era of great pitchers where many teams have multiple 'ace' types, so the perception of how good he is is also a bit skewed by that.
Quality Starts and ERA are faulty stats eh?
Game SEVEN in the WORLD SERIES against the Boston Red Sox. If I had the worst hitting team in baseball, I would be more comfortable if almost ALL of those were on the mound and not Justin Verlander. I'm not saying Verlander is a bad pitcher, but you never know which Verlander you get and more so, you usually get 3 ER or more.
LOL.
Oh, I get it.
You're a r*****d.
Yeah, a quality start is more like a mediocre start.
And ERA is heavily influenced by defense, ball park, and luck, which are factors outside of a pitchers control
It's a pretty poor stat and the majority MLB teams don't really use it to judge performance anymore.
Yeah, making stuff up doesn't help your point, it only weakens any argument you make before and after.
1. So you pick Tim L, Halladay, Johnson, Felix, Santana, Haren as sure picks. That's fair. You're opinion is always suggested. But unrealistic. Just like when you text me this week and said Lions win the Superbowl next year.
2. Cliff Lee and Grienke are better pitchers than Verlander would be the #1 if Verlander were on their team. Weaver is already proving to be better.
3. I think you are giving WAY too much look into the whole NL thing. Carpenter and Wainwright are great pitchers. Kershaw and Hanson are the real deal.
4. It's like it someone blamed spacious Comerica part for Verlander being able to keep his ERA lower. That a good excuses for you?
5. I read somewhere that Peavy was a top ten pitcher of this decade. So I looked at his stats and boy do I wish Verlander could do that for a decade.
6. Verlander was 28th in baseball in run support, less than 1 run behind CC. What was CC's run support like all those years in Cleveland?
LOL.
So what stats ISN'T affected by defense, ball park, and luck? What about wind, body temperature, and what they ate for lunch?
Fruit Salad.
I'm not a Tigers fan, but if I'm not mistaken, over the last two years, Verlander has pitched something like 460 innings and put up a 1.15 WHIP, winning like 35 games. Maybe he's not a future hall of fame candidate, but in today's game, in the AL, he's an Ace. I'm not going to get into the "who's better" game, but the list isn't very long. Put him in the NL and he would absolutely dominate. It's easy to lose sight of how good some of the guys on your own team are, when all you see of other team's stars is highlights. At the same time, it can be easy to get a little homerish and start down play how good some other guys are. For instance, CC, is legitimately great. He might be getting offensive support on the Yankees, but he was pretty great on Cleveland and Milwaukee too. I hate the Yankees, but you have to give that guy his due.
How often does Verlander give up more than 3 ER?
tERA, FIP, xFIP, and SIERA are all much less affected by factors outside of a pitchers control. Those stats focus on what pitchers can control to judge performance.
1. Do you have any idea what WPA actually is?
2. Check the link again, Verlander ranks 6th in WPA.
3. He ranks 7th in RE24.
4. He ranks 1st in WPA/LI
5. FAIL
I agree. A lot of homerish here. Verlander is a good pitcher and even with TWO no-hitters, he's not a shoe in for the HOF. He hasn't had a 20 win season, had a CY Young, nor stayed below 2.00 on ERA for a season. I'm glad he's on my team, but I would love for him to be our #2.
The NL argument is a little silly. He's had benefits pitching at Comerica. He also got tons of run support last year. How would he be at Coors Field? Yeah, he gets to face a pitcher twice, but if you are an ace, the bottom of any lineup should feel like pitching to "pitchers."
But come on...
Who would you want game 7 in the world series against Boston? CC or Verlander? Lee or Verlander? Carpenter or Verlander? Non-tigers fans would be picking the latter.
LOL.
You realize Comerica isn't a pitchers park don't you?
It's pretty much nuetral, with a very very very slight edge for hitters.
As I've said before, JV's "inflated" ERA is due to a handful of really horrendous innings every year. If he could start avoiding some of those then we won't be having this conversation...that being said...
Both of his no-hitters were very different. Against the Brewers he was young and raw and did it on pure stuff. 4 BBs though, with 12 Ks...could go under the category of "just wild enough to be effective."
Yesterday the velocity was there and he was hitting his SPOTS with it whereas sometimes he's usually a little wild when throwing that hard. Only the 1 walk yesterday, which was a borderline ball 4 (thanks to another umpire for robbing a perfect game, btw.) Other than that, teams were't getting even getting DEEP enough into at-bats to strikeout. They were hacking at the high fastball and popping it up or grounding out on the slider because he was locating both beautifully.
So Verlander is an ace, in any case.
I like how you pinpoint the stats you want.
How about CLUTCH?
He's not even on there.
and he's even in the negatives.
FAIL
LOL.
AL lineups are fundamentally better. It's not just the bottom of the lineup issue. Whatever benefit he has from pitching at Comerica doesn't make up for the lineup disparity. For Verlander to be your #2, you would need a guy that is a top 5 cy young candidate every year. Look, I'm not saying it's not a nice aspiration, but it's not all that realistic either.
I'm sure everybody would take Lee over Verlander.
Carpenter? haha, that's a joke.
Sabathia could go either way, him and Verlander are pretty much even.
Not to mention no Hill or Batista.
LOL.
You're the one who said you clicked on win probability.
WPA stands for win probability added.
You're the one who choose that stat, I just corrected you on where he finished there.
And clutch? haha, it's nowhere near as important or telling a stat as any of the ones I listed.
Look at other pitchers who have a negative clutch rating: Weaver, Lincecum, Lee, Johnson, Kershaw, Oswalt.
You should quit while you're hopelessly behind.
LOL @ Chico's under 2.00 ERA criteria. You are clueless. That's only happened five times in the last 25yrs and three times it was done by Maddux. The other two were Pedro and Clemens
I meant under 3.00.....It was a mistake.
LOL.
"Who would you want game 7 in the world series against Boston? CC or Verlander? Lee or Verlander? Carpenter or Verlander? Non-tigers fans would be picking the latter".
signed, Jack Morris.
And silence.
ERA is still relevant. It might not be the best way to judge performance, but there is something to be said for qualitative factors when it comes to pitchers. There are certain guys that are just good at making big pitches to get out of jams. They rise to the occasion. It's difficult, but not impossible, to capture that in stats. Yeah, WHIP matters, ERA+ matters, but if nothing else, there is a pretty direct correlation between ERA and other more advanced metrics. It's rare for someone to have a 2.4 ERA and bad peripherals over the course of a season.
Not if your ScottHall....It is the basis of whether or not you make it to the Hall ffs. I mean JV hasnt had a below 2 era yet....I mean ERA is #1 and Wins is #2.
I'm sure everybody would take Lee over Verlander.
Based on age, no I'd rather have the 28 year old.
In addition, I think the stats clearly show JV to be the superior pitcher to Sabathia since CC has become a Yankee and has been a bit longer in the tooth.
Clay Buchholz anyone? Others close include Jaime Garcia, Hudson and the amazing R.A. Dickey. I would say it's actually very common for a handful of pitchers to have very very lucky years.
And I would also take JV over CC, but it has been pretty close over the past couple of seasons, so if somebody were to take CC I wouldn't argue with them.
I always knew you were a troll Chico but now you just verified it for everyoen who didn't know.
EDIT ADD-ON
What if Verlander pitched in the NL where Chico is getting most of his guys from. How much better do you guys think his numbers would be? Every game he would have at least an additional 3 strikeouts from the pitchers or so. Then most NL teams have very weak bottom of the orders compared to the AL. And he wouldn't have to face a DH anymore.
first, it's shoo-in, not shoe in
I don't know of many pitchers at 28 that were hall of fame locks.
if you look at his numbers this year, he has a WHIP of .98, which is excellent.
Verlander is 12-2 lifetime verses the NL with a 3.43 Era in 17 career starts. 107.2 Innings pitched and a 111 strikeouts. The dude would dominate in the inferior hitting league. By the way Curtis I said the Lions would win the Super Bowl in 2013-2015.. I am pretty sure I said 2014.. I said they would be 10-6 next year with no mention on winning the super bowl. No need to lie about things now. Can't a long suffering Lion fan get excited about things.. Again of your list most Gm's would draft Justin ahead of over half of your list. Throwing out his 2005 season of 0-2 he is 86-53. Not many pitchers have a 6 year stretch like his. He is a horse that every team would like to have.
I've been here for probably 8-10 years. Yeah. I'm a troll.
Sorry if I dont' think Verlander is the greatest thing since slice bread.. He's a good pitcher but I never say, "Well, Tigers will probably win tomorrow" whenever he's pitching.
LOL.
So wouldn't that mean he would be outside the top 15? 6 year stretch of what? A lot of strikeouts and nothing else to show for it?
LOL.
Curtis, You just can't stand it when you are wrong. We give you evidence and you just dig your heels in. It is pretty funny sometimes.
You have no clue what Verlander would do in the NL. How do you know he couldn't adjust? Maybe he goes to a hitter friendly park and struggles? And Ace shouldn't have to worry about the bottom of the order. THEY ARE ACES...right?
LOL.
Every start he's had this year is a quality start.
Still silent.
what evidence?? No Cy Youngs? No 20 wins season? Can't even have one season under 3.00 ERA?
How about the fact that this week was his first SHUTOUT of the season or even 1 run allowed. (No Shut outs last year)
How about the fact is that no hitters generally don't involve hall of fame pitchers.
Jesus. He's a good pitcher but he's not a sure fire ace.
LOL.
Verlander is 12-2 lifetime verses the NL with a 3.43 Era in 17 career starts. 107.2 Innings pitched and a 111 strikeouts. The dude would dominate in the inferior hitting league. I guess that is a pretty good sample size.. .
Nah not to Chico it isn't.
Half the people on your list are not better than Verlander.. Tommy Hanson comes to mind.. And it's debatable between Cain as well..
Valuing QS over IP is a joke.
FIP, xFIP, tERA, and SIERA are all better than ERA to judge performance as well.
Verlander is a top 10 pitcher, and there's really no argument against that.
Ok so aces and guys who are better then Verlander have to have a CYY win 20 games or have an ERA under 3.00? I wish I felt like going through your whole list and breaking it down. I went thru some. Haren hasn't done any of those three things. Weaver only once has had an ERA lower then 3 and has never won 20 games either. Johnson hasn't won anymore then 15 and has only once had an ERA lower then 3. So how can you praise all of these guys and bash Verlander?
I guess we won't know til 20 years. I hope he turns into a bad @$$ but at this time being, I would never bet my money on Tigers if he were pitching.
LOL.
Despite the fact that in 173 career starts, the Tigers are 101-72 in those games. On a 162 game scale, that comes out to 95-67.
Crap man if this whole thing is about HOF and Verlander then yeah you are right he isn't a HOF pitcher yet. Only an idiot would say he is. The baseball HOF is the hardest of the 4 majors to get into.
But what I was going off of is you saying that guys like Johnson/Hanson/Cain/Weaver/Kershaw were all better then Verlander. And a lot of those guys either haven't been anymore consistent or worse then Verlander. So what I was asking is how can those guys be better when they haven't shown it yet?
thats just your homerism talking. There is NOTHING that separates Verlander from those guys you listed. Johnson & Weaver in my mind is better though. Kershaw will end up having a better career. Juror still out on Cain and Hanson. You probably just don't like them cause they don't K people.
LOL.
Weaver and Verlander both started playing MLB in 2006.
What sticks out to me is Justin has thrown a lot more innings 171 more
Wins Justin 86 wins, Weaver 70
Justin has almost 200 more strikeouts
All the rest of the stats are almost the same.
Justin is better end of discussion.
Though for their careers, Weaver isn't too far behind Verlander's numbers. FIP favors JV 3.59 to 3.66 and xFIP favors JV 3.92 to 4.06.
Durability gives the edge to JV.
As I said in another thread, durability is ridiculously underrated when discussing SP.
Verlander has pitched a ton more innings than Weaver at a slightly better performance level since they started in 2006. His WAR bears that out.
I'm a Dodgers fan as well and think they have two great young arms that just need to put it all together. They have both showen what they can do at times but they are so young they still have time to grow even more.
And I do agree overall that there are a few guys who I would rather have then Verlander. Like I said in another post he has somethings he still needs to learn as well. But like the Dodgers twins he is young enough to still grow. Its not like we're talking about him being past his prime and this is as good as he's going to get. He's just now hitting his prime years.
Exactly. My boy Chico is very ignorant. Sorry, bro, but you are.
Epic gold. It really doesn't get any better.
This thread is basically 6 pages of everybody on the board ragging on Chico and Chico attempting to defend his position largely in an unsuccessful manner. lol.
From 2006 -- Verlander's first full season with the Tigers -- through 2010, nine pitchers have won the Cy Young Award in the American and National leagues combined.
The Giants' Tim Lincecum is a two--time winner. The other three winners in the National League are Brandon Webb, Jake Peavy and Roy Halladay.
The American League's five winners are Johan Santana, C.C. Sabbathia, Cliff Lee, Zack Greinke and Felix Hernandez.
Verlander's won-lost record for those five years is 83-50. His winning percentage is 62.4.
Only Halladay (90-43) and Sabbathia (88-43) have won more games. In winning percentage, Verlander ranks sixth.
Ahead of him in winning percentage are Webb (56-25, 69.1), Lincecum (56-25, 69.1), Halladay (90-43, 67.7) Sabbathia (88-43, 67.1) and Santana (74-44, 62.7).
Behind Verlander are Lee (67-44, 60.4), Peavy (56-43, 56.6), Hernandez (67-49, 57.8) and Greinke (46-39, 54.1).
Of the last nine Cy Young winners, Sabbathia and Halladay are the only one's who matches Verlander's record of winning 17 or more games four times.
Another dominating outing by a true #2 pitcher, right Chica?
Tell me, who leads baseball in your favorite stat to bash Verlander on, Quality Starts??
She won't come around while Verly is going good Booger..you know that.
She ( Chica ) will show up though when he has a bad outing and tell everyone once again Verly isn't a true #1.
Sad, but true.
never been hurt or misses his turn. He's figured out how to be a complete pitcher. Hes 28. and the kid with the electric stuff has become a man. Close to 90 wins already the future looks very bright for JV............. A true ace?........ hmmmmm.........A better question would be. Will he be the best in the game over the next 5 yrs?
I really enjoy this thread.
Pretty sure he's got the lowest WHIP of any qualified pitcher in baseball right now. I wish he was a true ace.
still love that list of guys who are better then he is. Half those guys could only hope to be JV. Great pitchers on his list but no way are they better then JV.
I think it's JV and Halladay and everyone else is battling for 3rd.
maybe chica should run his thread on the Indians board or the Sox,Twins and Royals boards. if you throw in the hate factor some may agree with him..............nah..............im pretty sure the general consensus would be ..........you're an *****.
bump-------for Chica.
J.V. driving the AL Cy Young bus right now......
I notice chica hasn't commented in a while.
Wonder why??
Bump.......for JV because he is the best pitcher IN ALL OF BASEBALL right now.
The rediculous question of weather or not he is an ace is over. It's a fact now. The only question remaining is if he will win the Cy Young this year?
I'll say yes.
This thread is epic.
so who is it that thinks verlander isn't an ace??
bump.
Another terrible outing by Verlander. He should be ashamed of himself.
I know. Did you see him walk that one guy. JV is pathetic. I would take 237 other pitchers over that guy. Here is my list... Mike Moore Bill Gullickson Greg Gohr Scott Aldred Justin Thompson
Steve Sparks Matt Anderson Joe Boever.....just for the palm ball Shane Loux
Milt Cuyler....im sure he could have been a better pitcher than JV....just wasn't given the chance. He would have had a great walk and HR rate.
Just to name a few.....
How'd I do Chica???
http://www.baseball-reference.com/blog/archives/12057
Justin Verlander Best Tiger's Pitcher since....
from baseball reference
Check out the MLB top-10 lists for 2009-2011 combined that appear at the bottom of this post (stats through June 24 -- not including Verlander's 14-K gem on 6/25). Verlander ranks 3rd in IP, 6th in Wins Above Replacement (WAR), 2nd in strikeouts (actually 1st now), and 2nd in WHIP (min. 300 IP).
The list of Tigers pitchers who had multiple years at Verlander's level isn't very long. At age 28, in just his 6th full season, Verlander already has 5 seasons of at least 3.5 WAR. Only 3 pitchers ever had more such years as Tigers: Mickey Lolich and Hal Newhouser had 6 each, and the steady, unheralded Tommy Bridges had 8. Jim Bunning and Frank Lary (who were teammates) had 5 each; Jack Morris only had 4.
Verlander is well on his way to his 2nd season over 5 WAR. Only Newhouser (6) and Lolich (3) had more 5-WAR seasons.
And he's more than halfway to 7 WAR this year. In their 110-year history, there have been just 11 seasons at 7+ WAR by a Tigers pitcher: 3 by Newhouser, 2 by Dizzy Trout, 1 each by 6 other pitchers, including Denny McLain, in 1969 (yes, '69). The last 7-WAR season by a Tiger was by (prepare for a shock) Justin Thompson in 1997.
And not to gloss over the oldest pitching stat, Wins: If Verlander gets to 18 wins this year (he has 10 now), it would be his 4th such year, tying him with Lolich and Morris. Only George Mullin (7, with Ty Cobb's gang), Hooks Dauss (5, ditto) and Newhouser (5) have more 18-win seasons as Tigers.
The Matt Cain, Dan Haren, and Tommy Hanson comments are the best. I almost fell out of my chair on those comparisons.
Chica is already on record as saying this year wont count since it's the "Year of the Pitcher". Ignoring the fact that if it is the year of the pitcher (which it isn't) then there would be even more competition for the Cy Young so it should mean more this season.
Chica can't admit he is wrong because by any measure Verlander is a top 5 pitcher in baseball over the last 3 years, top 5 since he's come into the league and this year is the best. Yes, this season so far Verlander has pitched better than Halladay or anyone else. He's the best pitcher in baseball this year. Let's just enjoy it because he is doing things no Tiger has done in a long long time.
He has been consistent, though.
Since his rookie season: Top 15
Wins-3rd
ERA- 21st
WHIP-15th
IP-6th
K-4th
WAR-4th
09-11: Top 7
Wins- 3rd
ERA- 16th
WHIP- 3rd
IP-3rd
K- 1st
WAR- 2nd
This year: Top 3
Wins- 1st
ERA- 5th
WHIp- 1st
IP- 1st
K- 2nd
WAR- 4th
I would really like to know Chica's definition of an "Ace". I have a feeling that there wouldn't be many that live up to his standards.
There aren't many. I'm thinking surefire hall of famers. 4-5 CY Young type seasons.
LOL.
Well, you should call it a Chica-ace.....or a Super Duper Ace! This is what almost all other baseball fans consider an ace (I just googled it and it made sense)
In baseball, an ace is the best starting pitcher of any team and nearly always the first pitcher in his starting rotation. Barring injury or exceptional circumstances, an ace usually always starts on Opening Day. In addition, aces are usually preferred to start crucial playoff games, sometimes on three days rest.
IF that the definition you want, go for it. I hope not because then you are putting Verlander on the same page as Hochevar, Livian Hernandez, Maholm, Guthrie........
Some teams' ace just isn't very good. Some teams may have 3 (Phillies). The Tigers just happen to have one that is a top 10 pitcher in all of baseball.
Wow just when it can't get any funnier Chico comes back. Still wonder how guys like Hanson and Cain who haven't been anymore consistent then Verlander are aces but not Verlander. And how Zambrano could be equal to Verlander. Now hes saying Sheilds and some other guys are on the same level as Verlander now. So what have they proven then Chico if you want to look at track records?
Lasty yes you are a troll and I don't care how long you've been around for. I know plenty of trolls from other boards that have been around just as long as you have doesn't make them any less of trolls.
Who, in your opinion Chica, are today's aces?? Also, who is next in line to be an ACE in your opinion?? (not that laughable list of pitchers you would take over JV......good comedy though)
I'd like to mention that today was the first home start of Justin's I've not been to since the Boston one (ya know, where the Sox scored a whole 0 runs in 7.2 innings). So that means I went to 3 games where Justin pitched 25 innings, allowed just 11 hits, ONE run, and K'd 36 batters. Then today, I had to watch a home start on TV. He didn't have his "A" game and still managed to hold a red freaking hot offense to 1 run in 7 innings.
Just saying, if you don't think he's an ace yet (2 months after this thread started) then you're growing more and more ignorant.
He was an ace before the season. He just took two more steps forward.
According to Chica...you need to have "4 or 5" Cy Young seasons before you become an "ACE".
I would love to know what pitchers he currently considers an ace.
Bump....because I can and Chica is still an ****t.
I see you JV!!!
This thread keeps getting better and better....lol.
Woooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
To top off this subject....I think last night was the proving point of this whole ace/not an ace argument.
Did JV have his best stuff......NO. That pitch sequence to Dunn in the 1st inning was awful. He was all over the zone most of the night and his change up was not nearly his best.
However, being an ACE is more than just stuff. Last night, he battled through a night he was off, against a team that usually hits him well, and got a W.
That 8th inning will go down in Verlander lore as his "arrival" inning (to me at least). Tigers got the lead in the top of the inning, he took the ball, stepped out on the mound and basicall said "you can't f****** hit me"....and got us a BIG win against a division opponent.
Thats what and ACE does....and that's what he is.
End of discussion.
I'm just gonna continue to add and add to this post when I feel like it. Almost pitched another no-hitter today in outdueling Jared Weaver. Now leading the AL in wins and K's. ERA sitting at 2.25. Too bad he's not an ace tho haha.
