stonecold2136 said:

Kinsler plays 2b defense as a higher level than Sweet Lou. His offensive play absolutely incredible. DD gets another feather in his cap for this trade.

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It's almost like you think the rest of us want him to fail..

Mitchrapp said:

It's almost like you think the rest of us want him to fail..

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I myself, wonder whether a few guys here hope for stuff like that to support their original claims on new players.

Look at Davis for example. He's been hitting pretty well, stealing bases and scoring runs, yet every time the lineup comes out it's "why the fuck is Davis playing or leading off!" Not to mention he's done it ALL against RHP.

We have a chance to go 3-2 on a west coast trip with a win today and are currently 3 games up in the loss column in the division and you'd think we hadn't won a game all year with the way some of these people are bitching.

gotime909 said:

I myself, wonder whether a few guys here hope for stuff like that to support their original claims on new players.

Look at Davis for example. He's been hitting pretty well, stealing bases and scoring runs, yet every time the lineup comes out it's "why the fuck is Davis playing or leading off!" Not to mention he's done it ALL against RHP.

We have a chance to go 3-2 on a west coast trip with a win today and are currently 3 games up in the loss column in the division and you'd think we hadn't won a game all year with the way some of these people are bitching.

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Some of us don't judge based on only 5% of the season. And even more understand that players can have "fluke" and/or "career" years. Additionally, generally speaking, after the age of 25 or 26, players do not become something they are not.

As Tiger fans, we all wants best for the Tigers, even if it means enduring season after season of Brandon Inge, Phil Coke and Jose Valverde.

So.... Davis at 33 is doing well to start the season (9 games) and we should just ignore the last 486 games?

Davis's 2009 season fluke/career(.305). Does not mean he an not have another. Change of teams, hitters batting behind him can make a difference. And lets face it having Cabrera in the lineup helps any batter that bats in front of him. It's his age that affects his speed, so far he's getting it done. 6 runs 5 SB's in 26 PA's. it's what he does when he gets on base that what counts! After he not going the BANG his production out.

Rebbiv said:

Some of us don't judge based on only 5% of the season. And even more understand that players can have "fluke" and/or "career" years. Additionally, generally speaking, after the age of 25 or 26, players do not become something they are not.

As Tiger fans, we all wants best for the Tigers, even if it means enduring season after season of Brandon Inge, Phil Coke and Jose Valverde.

So.... Davis at 33 is doing well to start the season (9 games) and we should just ignore the last 486 games?

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Waiting til he at least struggles before bashing him wouldn't hurt. I'm not saying that Davis is gonna be an all star or anything, but sometimes a change of scenery or maybe just the right fit can lead a player to much better numbers. Look at Carlos Guillen, Placido Polanco and Jhonny Peralta. There's 3 guys that Dombrowski targeted that were either said to be regressing or just weren't thought of as big time hitters. They all had good years into their 30's with us.

They are minor/big leaguers for a reason. They have immense talent. Some take longer to realize it than others. Davis is role player, nothing more. He's hit for average and shown speed his entire career. He doesn't draw walks or hit home runs. He has good ability to put bat on ball, which means any given year, he can hit above .300.. his good contact rate also protects him from falling too far below .250. He doesn't hit right handers well at all, and the first nine games do not prove otherwise. I agree with Rebbiv on that. I'm just not getting the pessimism. Let the players play. If they only play average like they have in the past, oh well. If they play better, then great. We know what we have.

Regardless what anyone things no one here is rooting for anyone to fail. Well, outside maybe Phil Coke when we're up by 8. But that might be "when we're up by 12" now.

gotime909 said:

Waiting til he at least struggles before bashing him wouldn't hurt. I'm not saying that Davis is gonna be an all star or anything, but sometimes a change of scenery or maybe just the right fit can lead a player to much better numbers. Look at Carlos Guillen, Placido Polanco and Jhonny Peralta. There's 3 guys that Dombrowski targeted that were either said to be regressing or just weren't thought of as big time hitters. They all had good years into their 30's with us.

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Nobody is bashing him, and you said something about "hate" in last nights game thread. There is no hate or bashing going on. We have simply stated, based on overwhelming statistical evidence, that Davis should platoon vs. LHP mostly, who he hits well. We all under stand he's going to get the odd start vs. RHP, but so far he's started all but 1 game vs. RHP and 0 vs. LHP.

Also he probably should not be leading off. In a small sample has he done okay? Sure, but then so has Don Kelly, who in one of his starts went 3-4.

you're so quick to jump on someones opinion, you don;t even take time to understand that opinion.

gotime909 said:

Waiting til he at least struggles before bashing him wouldn't hurt. I'm not saying that Davis is gonna be an all star or anything, but sometimes a change of scenery or maybe just the right fit can lead a player to much better numbers. Look at Carlos Guillen, Placido Polanco and Jhonny Peralta. There's 3 guys that Dombrowski targeted that were either said to be regressing or just weren't thought of as big time hitters. They all had good years into their 30's with us.

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First of all, except for Guillen, both Polanco and Peralta had very similar 3 year away splits before the trade and then after the trade. The difference? Comerica increases hitter's BAVG due to the large gaps in the outfield.

And why just limit to those 3 players? Because they were traded for? Then why not add Jacques Jones, Chris Truby, Delmon Young, Alex Sanchez, Gene Kingsale, Sean Casey, Neifi Perez, Edgar Renteria, Aubrey Huff, Josh Anderson, Wilson Betemit or any DET plater acquired via trade?

Have you seen me recently post anything negative about Davis and/or Kinsler? No. Just like you won't see me acclaim so and so is "world class dominant lights out" after only 9 games. Or be excited about any player being good or bad after 9 games, 90 games or anything other amount of time less than at least 2 years.

DD's trades and Ausmus' line up decision cannot be fully evaluated after only 5% of the games. And even 1 year is not going to paint a good picture one way or the other.

We have all become impatient for a Tigers World series Title.
and can't help lashing out at players even at this early in the season.
I am as guilty as anyone else here.
We are BS at the bullpen. the Fister trade, the season ending or half season injuries to Dirks, Iglesias, and Rondon. A few of us are or were wondering wtf was going on with Miggy.
and with so many chances at the Big prize....well again it is understandable.
It happens.....and will continue each and every game.....

...and we're not any different than any other organization. Every teams fan base lashes out now and then about the players. It's baseball..

I've been happy with Davis' bat so far but my concern with him wasn't his bat.

My buddy in Toronto said by the end of the year his defense is what will have us all pulling our hair out. His speed covers for his terrible positioning some of the time but when it can't, things get really ugly.

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Are you trying to imply that anyone not happy with the trade for him, or doubting his skills is not a Tigers fan? The second half of your post seems like you're trying to bait someone.

As far as his steals going up, a lot depends on how Ausmus manages, but I think 30 is a little on the high side. He hit 30 twice with his career high being 31, and he's getting older and slower. He'll swipe a handful of bases, but I'd guess more in the 15-20 range, and of course the most important thing will be how often he gets thrown out. Last year he was terrible at stealing, getting thrown out in nearly half his attempts, hopefully he can rebound from that a bit.

I was never opposed to having Kinsler here to play second base, although I do feel he is overrated based on playing half his games in a very hitter friendly park. I would have however liked to have gotten a little more considering what we gave up to get Kinsler.

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we gave up a mega contract that did next to nothing for this team for years. I, for one, was all in for the fielder trade. I also didn't mind the fister trade cause I didn't think signing your 4th starter for a bunch of money was needed and Nathan was extremely needed...and unlike most people on the board....I did think it was one or the other and the fister trade was a salary dump. kinsler trade looks good so far.....but we got a dead arm in the Nathan signing. hopefully he can bounce back. If smyly cant figure out how to eat up innings then I expect to see a lot more games like today....our middle relief is fucking awful lol.

mhughes0021 said:

we gave up a mega contract that did next to nothing for this team for years. I, for one, was all in for the fielder trade. I also didn't mind the fister trade cause I didn't think signing your 4th starter for a bunch of money was needed and Nathan was extremely needed...and unlike most people on the board....I did think it was one or the other and the fister trade was a salary dump. kinsler trade looks good so far.....but we got a dead arm in the Nathan signing. hopefully he can bounce back. If smyly cant figure out how to eat up innings then I expect to see a lot more games like today....our middle relief is fucking awful lol.

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Fister trade is one aspect. It was what we got in return that made it a stupid trade. Call him a 4th if you want, he was a top 20 SP in the AL. Trades happen I just wish we'd gotten more.

mhughes0021 said:

we gave up a mega contract that did next to nothing for this team for years. I, for one, was all in for the fielder trade. I also didn't mind the fister trade cause I didn't think signing your 4th starter for a bunch of money was needed and Nathan was extremely needed...and unlike most people on the board....I did think it was one or the other and the fister trade was a salary dump. kinsler trade looks good so far.....but we got a dead arm in the Nathan signing. hopefully he can bounce back. If smyly cant figure out how to eat up innings then I expect to see a lot more games like today....our middle relief is fucking awful lol.

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So many things wrong with this post....where to begin?

First off, that mega-contract that did next to nothing for years.....was only here for 2 years, one of which was below average (2013) and the other was well above average (2012). I guess you have selective memory.

Second, what are you talking about sign our 4th starter for a bunch of money? Arbitration raise Fister got was still pennies compared to his value, and show me a link that says Fister had to go to sign Nathan. That's a product of rumor based on people (rightly so) not being able to understand the Fister trade in the first place, because it makes no sense.

The Fister trade was salary dump? Then since then we paid (overpaid) Joba, and Davis. Offered Max a fat contract (glad he turned down) and signed Miggy to the richest contract ever. Yeah, we really seem like a team dumping salary. (rolls eyes) That extra 3.2 million pay raise was going to break the bank. :nuts:

As far as the Kinsler trade, sure he's working out nicely. But consider we are paying about the same for him right now as Fielder ($23MM). I never had a problem with bringing in Kinsler in the deal, but I think we got hosed on the money, if nothing else we should have gotten a bullpen arm as a throw in. And I have said this all along.

Thumb said:

So many things wrong with this post....where to begin?

First off, that mega-contract that did next to nothing for years.....was only here for 2 years, one of which was below average (2013) and the other was well above average (2012). I guess you have selective memory.

Second, what are you talking about sign our 4th starter for a bunch of money? Arbitration raise Fister got was still pennies compared to his value, and show me a link that says Fister had to go to sign Nathan. That's a product of rumor based on people (rightly so) not being able to understand the Fister trade in the first place, because it makes no sense.

The Fister trade was salary dump? Then since then we paid (overpaid) Joba, and Davis. Offered Max a fat contract (glad he turned down) and signed Miggy to the richest contract ever. Yeah, we really seem like a team dumping salary. (rolls eyes) That extra 3.2 million pay raise was going to break the bank. :nuts:

As far as the Kinsler trade, sure he's working out nicely. But consider we are paying about the same for him right now as Fielder ($23MM). I never had a problem with bringing in Kinsler in the deal, but I think we got hosed on the money, if nothing else we should have gotten a bullpen arm as a throw in. And I have said this all along.

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first off, fielder sucked when it mattered...both years. He was awful in the postseason. NOt to mention he was hitting behind the best player in baseball...and he still sucked fat ass.

Yes, I believe fister had to go cause he wasn't going to get his money here. Any link that shows you DD thinks he got fair value for Fister is a bunch of GM speak bullcrap. He obviously saw little value in signing his 4th starter to big money....which it probably would have taken to get him to stay here considering it seemed he didn't really want to be here. Have you heard anything since the trade from him saying "man I really wish I could have worked it out in Detroit"? I haven't..... and to your point....when DD knows he has max and cabby on the table this year....fister wasn't going to get his.

Im definitely not raising my arms in victory in regards to the kinsler deal....his contract is way cheaper over its life but the 30 mil were paying to Texas for fielder hurts the value we got in return for sure. While there are several benefits from having kinsler over fielder (speed, lead off hitter etc) the main one is that he gets cheaper as his years go on. Both teams feel they got rid of a headcase locker cancer...so that's a wash. it will really come down to sheer numbers over the life of their contracts....way to soon to say a team won or not.

So your saying we traded Fister away a full 2 years early, for jack shit return, so we would not have to pay him big money when he was a free agent?

And as far as Fielder goes, why don't you just say you dislike him because he's fat. Your argument of his postseason performance would apply to almost every Tiger on those 2 teams not named Delmon Young or Jhonny Peralta. You don't like him, I get it but just say that rather than try to make some flimsy excuse.

That's the point we had Fister for two more years..Speculation Fister wanted to finish career in the West coast. But that doesn't mean you trade him for cheap 2 years before he becomes a FA. DD screwed the pooch.

Mitchrapp said:

That's the point we had Fister for two more years..Speculation Fister wanted to finish career in the West coast. But that doesn't mean you trade him for cheap 2 years before he becomes a FA. DD screwed the pooch.

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my guess is DD doesn't think he traded him for cheap...I think DD feels that he got fair value in return for Fister. It is a gamble on Roby but if he turns out to be a middle of the rotation starter the trade will be viewed as a win for the Tigers.