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We Traded Devin Travis to Jays

What am I missing ?

Travis, 23, batted .298/.358/.460 with 10 home runs and 16 stolen bases in 441 plate a AA Erie...
I thought we needed OBP from anyone :/

I know we need outfield defense but are we just trading a guy cause he is coming off a surgery? I hope you guys are right... I know the kid is blocked at second base but numbers wise I feel sorta like DD was fleeced a tad...
Most projection have his ceiling being an average mlb player. Thats what it says about him and what it says about the tigers farm system.
 
Why am I not surprised that you hate this trade? You seem to hate every trade DD makes. People say we need to get better defensively, then bitch when we trade for a defender who is most likely only going to platoon with Davis anyhow. Remember, the outfield isn't a finished product yet. Watch for us to sign (Melky?) or trade for a good hitter to play one of the corner spots. Heck, we may even sign or trade for a 3B and move Castellanos and his awful glove out to the outfield where it'd be more tolerable. Taking this deal in a vacuum, we got a fast, young, cheap and controlled defensive CF who bats lefty... all things we sorely needed. What did we give up? A young minor league 2B who was blocked by at least two other players for the foreseeable future. Could we have gotten something different or better for Travis? Who knows. To that point, what makes you think that we could have even gotten Bourjos, let alone for Travis? I'm sure you know this already, but it takes two to tango... the Cards would have to want what we've got, and we'd have to want what they've got, and that still may not be enough to get a deal done. This isn't a video game or fantasy draft, yet posters always want to sit back and second guess every trade or signing as if any and all other options were on the table at the time. Don't take what I say here as an attack on you, Rebbiv, or a complete defense of DD... it's neither of those things. I am just trying to say that we got what we needed (on paper anyways), and we only had to give up a guy who was blocked to do so.

It is all about value. Don't give me the crap that we needed to upgrade defensively and that Travis was blocked. That does not diminish the fact that Travis projects higher as a player. Gose is a AAAA player and nothing more. There is not a single outlier that would suggest otherwise.

It isn't the fact we got Gose per say. It is the fact we gave up way too much value. And I hope the hell Gose doesn't start too many games.
 
You're right, he's not Bourjos with the bat...Bourjos is as bad or worse, given his career away line of .259 OBP .305 SLG .564 OPS.

And even though Bourjos is a righty, he's somehow almost as bad vs LHP as Gose: .252 OBP .330 SLG .582 OPS.


Sure, Gose probably isnt as good in the field as Bourjos...who is, really? But Gose is ~3 years younger, cheap, controlled, still excellent defensively, and still can improve with the bat. And who knows if Bourjos is even available, especially given that Taveras just died?


All in all, I think this was a good trade.

Where did you get those numbers?

Career Away

R. Davis .314 OBP .356 SLG .670 OPS

Bourjos .278 OBP .379 SLG .657 OPS

Gose .286 OBP .297 SLG .583 OPS


Career vs RHP

Bourjos .311 OBP .388 SLG .699 OPS

Gose .316 OBP .350 SLG .666 OPS

R. Davis .296 OBP .349 SLG .645 OPS


Career vs LHP

R. Davis .358 OBP .446 SLG .804 OPS

Bourjos .290 OBP .387 SLG .677 OPS

Gose .246 OBP .267 SLG .513 OPS

And my point about Bourjos isn't about the age. It is about a quality defensive CFer who cannot get a full time gig.

Career Minors

D. Travis = .388 OBP .487 SLG .876 OPS 11.8 PA/BB

Bourjos = .345 OBP .455 SLG .800 OPS 15.6 PA/BB

R. Davis = .375 OBP .409 SLG .784 OPS 11.3 PA/BB

Gose = .334 OBP .381 SLG .715 OPS 12.2 PA/BB

Rarely does a player improve on their career minor league numbers. And how does Gose upgrade offensively over R. Davis? Their numbers are almost the same versus RHP. Odds are, Gose is a spot starter and late inning defensive replacement.

Don't get me wrong, I believe Travis has a low ceiling (i.e. he won't be an All Star type player), but he has a high floor (i.e. replacement level to average as an MLB 2B). Sure he was blocked. We could have traded Ian Kinsler for Gose and I would have been OK, because the salary savings would have been the value.
 
It is all about value. Don't give me the crap that we needed to upgrade defensively and that Travis was blocked. That does not diminish the fact that Travis projects higher as a player. Gose is a AAAA player and nothing more. There is not a single outlier that would suggest otherwise.

It isn't the fact we got Gose per say. It is the fact we gave up way too much value. And I hope the hell Gose doesn't start too many games.

Your statement that Travis projects higher as a player is simply not true based on every writer and scout comment I've seen. Everything I've seen on Travis says he'll be an average player at best, and that he'll slot into the Jays system as about their fifth or sixth best prospect. He's an average runner, adequate defender, and he's small, but his bat is good, as are his baseball instincts.

Gose on the other hand already has very good to excellent defensive skills, an excellent arm, and very good speed (all being outliers which you claim don't exist). The knock on him is his bat, which I agree 100% on, but many feel that it will develop more with new hitting coaches. I'd say that he'll probably always be a below average to bad hitter, but if he can get on base a bit more (i.e., lower the K rate, make a bit more contact, take more walks, or just hit more), the rest of his skills should more than make up for his weakness at the plate.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/trade-central-tigers-deal-top-prospect-travis-toronto-gose/

Pat Caputo, who used to do BA's minor league player rankings for many years, said last night on the radio that Travis definitely shouldn't have been our #1 prospect. He said he's probably at least #2 or #3 behind Moya and Hill, in his educated opinion. He also said that he wouldn't have even ranked him in the Top 100 prospects after seeing a lot of him. He was really high on Gose and on the trade. He echoed everything else I've seen by saying Gose is a borderline elite defender, excellent base runner, and very strong thrower. He felt that the 7mo age difference between Gose and Travis amounted to a swap of prospects, and we got the better end of the deal by getting the better athlete who possesses certain excellent skill sets and has MLB experience. He didn't knock Travis, but said he's pretty average all the way around and thought we sold high on him. He also thought the deal made a ton of sense based on our current needs and Travis's path being blocked here in Detroit.

I normally disagree with a lot of what Pat says on sports, but he always seems to know his baseball players and how they project or will perform. That's one area where I definitely trust his opinion.
 
Your statement that Travis projects higher as a player is simply not true based on every writer and scout comment I've seen. Everything I've seen on Travis says he'll be an average player at best, and that he'll slot into the Jays system as about their fifth or sixth best prospect. He's an average runner, adequate defender, and he's small, but his bat is good, as are his baseball instincts.

Gose on the other hand already has very good to excellent defensive skills, an excellent arm, and very good speed (all being outliers which you claim don't exist). The knock on him is his bat, which I agree 100% on, but many feel that it will develop more with new hitting coaches. I'd say that he'll probably always be a below average to bad hitter, but if he can get on base a bit more (i.e., lower the K rate, make a bit more contact, take more walks, or just hit more), the rest of his skills should more than make up for his weakness at the plate.

http://www.baseballamerica.com/majors/trade-central-tigers-deal-top-prospect-travis-toronto-gose/

Pat Caputo, who used to do BA's minor league player rankings for many years, said last night on the radio that Travis definitely shouldn't have been our #1 prospect. He said he's probably at least #2 or #3 behind Moya and Hill, in his educated opinion. He also said that he wouldn't have even ranked him in the Top 100 prospects after seeing a lot of him. He was really high on Gose and on the trade. He echoed everything else I've seen by saying Gose is a borderline elite defender, excellent base runner, and very strong thrower. He felt that the 7mo age difference between Gose and Travis amounted to a swap of prospects, and we got the better end of the deal by getting the better athlete who possesses certain excellent skill sets and has MLB experience. He didn't knock Travis, but said he's pretty average all the way around and thought we sold high on him. He also thought the deal made a ton of sense based on our current needs and Travis's path being blocked here in Detroit.

I normally disagree with a lot of what Pat says on sports, but he always seems to know his baseball players and how they project or will perform. That's one area where I definitely trust his opinion.

This was probably the best article (KC Posted it) that I found because it was unbiased.

If you like big trades with flashy names, this isn?t the post for you, because this one is dedicated to the Tigers swapping second base prospect Devon Travis to the Blue Jays for center field kinda prospect Anthony Gose. Neither Travis nor Gose looks likely to turn into any kind of star, but this trade is still interesting ? to me at least ? because both look like potentially useful pieces that help fill a need for their new teams.


We?ll start with Gose, since he?s got league big league experience and big league data. He?s the classic athlete that can?t really hit, and probably didn?t belong in the big leagues in his early-20s. Over parts of three seasons, he?s posted a 75 wRC+, with a high strikeout/low power combination that makes it very difficult for him to ever project as even a decent big league hitter. Even as a 24 year old, a 74% contact rate just won?t cut it for a guy who doesn?t drive the ball with any kind of authority. You can give him some age-related improvement, but odds are Gose is never going to hit enough to be a big league regular.

But in limited time, he looks like he might do the other things well enough to be a pretty useful part-time outfielder. He?s racked up +7 runs of baserunning value in the rough equivalent of one year?s worth of playing time, and all three of UZR, DRS, and the Fan?s Scouting Report have rated him as an above average defensive center fielder. If his speed and defense can be sustained at above average levels ? and given his athleticism, this doesn?t seem like a reach ? Gose could be a solid role player, a +1 to +2 WAR outfielder under team control for several more years at deflated prices.

While he?s basically Torii Hunter?s polar opposite, there?s actually a decent chance that Gose is the better player in 2015, and it wouldn?t be too surprising to me if Gose actually outperformed Hunter going forward. Keep that in mind when someone gives the Tigers former right fielder a pretty nice paycheck in the next couple of weeks.

Of course, one could argue that a team in win-now mode shouldn?t be giving too much playing time to below average players, but teams need depth too, and the Tigers didn?t really have much in the way of outfield depth, nor do they have endless amounts of money that they can throw at every single one of their problems. There?s nothing wrong with having a speed-and-defense outfielder on the roster, and Gose might be a good enough version of that skillset to not be a total embarrassment if forced into everyday duty.

But he didn?t come free. Devon Travis isn?t exactly the sexiest prospect around, but it?s worth noting that the Steamer projections ? based on his minor league performances to date ? kind of love him. Actually, strike the kind of; Travis is one of Steamer?s favorite prospects in all of baseball. Here?s what Cistulli wrote about him in the post highlighting his strong projection:

Just a 13th-round selection in 2012 out of Florida State, Travis has produced markedly above-average batting marks at every level to which he?s been exposed, recording both excellent plate-discipline numbers and also high BABIP figures. The result: a slash line of .323/.388/.487 line in over 1,000 minor-league plate appearances. According to Steamer?s computer math, Travis ? who enters his age-24 season next April ? already profiles as a league-average hitter. That?s valuable for a player who also appears likely to handle second base.

Travis isn?t known for his physical tools, but he?s shown an intriguing combination of high contact skills with some power, which is a pretty rare trait for a middle infielder. And it?s not just the numbers: Baseball America?s Clint Longenecker penned a nice piece on him last year explaining why the results might carry over to the big league level.

If Travis actually is something like a league average hitter and can play average defense at second base, then the Blue Jays are going to be quite happy with this deal. Second base was a massive hole for them last year, and even an average player would be a significant upgrade, especially if he?s as big league ready in 2014 as Steamer thinks he might be.

Of course, Steamer could be wrong. Maybe Travis is more mediocre hitter than average one, in which case he?d look like the +1 to +2 WAR player that Gose also appears to be, making this deal more about two teams trading from depth for things they need more. But while no projection system is perfect, Steamer is a very good forecasting tool, and it is basing its optimism on the success of similar kinds of players. After all, those who don?t think much of Travis? future probably also weren?t big fans of Martin Prado either, and he?s averaged +2.8 WAR per 600 plate appearances over a pretty solid career. Omar Infante fits the mold too.

There are enough examples of guys like Travis who turn into real players that the Blue Jays could actually have made a pretty nice deal here. If the projections on Travis aren?t totally bonkers, six years of an average (or maybe even slightly above average) middle infielder is a nifty return for a speed-and-defense fourth outfielder. Of course, there?s a chance that Travis is more Marcus Semien than Martin Prado, and in a year, maybe we won?t even remember that this trade happened.

But both guys bring enough to the table that this is the kind of small move that could look like an underrated pickup for both sides. I think it probably has a better chance to work out for Toronto long term, but like Jeff noted earlier, the Tigers don?t really care about the long term. They made their 2015 team better than it was. That?s what they?re going to do this winter.
 
It is all about value. Don't give me the crap that we needed to upgrade defensively and that Travis was blocked. That does not diminish the fact that Travis projects higher as a player. Gose is a AAAA player and nothing more. There is not a single outlier that would suggest otherwise.

It isn't the fact we got Gose per say. It is the fact we gave up way too much value. And I hope the hell Gose doesn't start too many games.

That was what I was thinking R... Exactly..
 
So we went from a .274 lifetime hitter (Jackson) to a guy who can't hit himself out of a wet paper bag. excellent.
 
My question is what does this do for Don freakin' Kelly?

Nothing, that's what.
 
Why am I not surprised that you hate this trade? You seem to hate every trade DD makes.

yep, it's so predictable every move the Tigers make this guy will be in the thread complaining and spinning it into a negative.
 
Reb, i got the numbers from fangraphs, but it turns out those were just Bourjos' 2014 splits. I thought I'd hit the career tab, but it must not have loaded right or taken the click. My bad.


At any rate, the more i read about Gose, the less I like him. If his bat improves a bit vs RHP he can still maybe be a platoon CF, but right now he's at best a bench guy (a useful one given his speed and defense, but a bench guy nonetheless.) What I like even less is that he seems to have attitude problems. The BYB scouting report that the Jays blogger wrote mentioned stuff like not listening to coaches and getting pissy when he got sent down to the minors. That cannot continue. Gose seems to be a prototypical DD-boner guy that he hyperfocuses on getting: very athletic and toolsy, but has problems translating that talent into baseball skills. Very little plate discipline as well, another DD-guy hallmark.


All this being said, I'm still not high on Travis and I don't see this trade hurting us a ton IF AND ONLY IF we get a good corner outfielder like Melky Cabrera (or maybe even Tomas.) We ABSOLUTELY cannot have Gose be the starting CF and Davis be the starting LF. They are both part-time players at best. If we dont get a corner OF this offseason, DD should be fired.
 
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From DD's press conference the other day. I don't like the sounds of this.

We feel comfortable right now where we are," Dombrowski said of the makeup of the outfield. "We do have J.D. and Rajai out there in two of the spots. Gose gives us a legitimate center fielder. We also think a young guy like (Tyler) Collins is ready to play and I guess it's to be determined on (Steven) Moya to see how he continues to develop, but he's had a real good Arizona Fall League.
 
From DD's press conference the other day. I don't like the sounds of this.

We feel comfortable right now where we are," Dombrowski said of the makeup of the outfield. "We do have J.D. and Rajai out there in two of the spots. Gose gives us a legitimate center fielder. We also think a young guy like (Tyler) Collins is ready to play and I guess it's to be determined on (Steven) Moya to see how he continues to develop, but he's had a real good Arizona Fall League.

Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see from Dombrowski. He's the master of saying a lot without saying anything at all. He's not gonna tip his hand on what he's thinking here, nor would I ever believe he'd declare the outfield is set before Thanksgiving. There's a lot of offseason left, winter meetings coming up, as well as spring training. Our outfield may not truly be set until the summer trade deadline or even September call-ups with the way things have been going in recent years.
 
Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see from Dombrowski. He's the master of saying a lot without saying anything at all. He's not gonna tip his hand on what he's thinking here, nor would I ever believe he'd declare the outfield is set before Thanksgiving. There's a lot of offseason left, winter meetings coming up, as well as spring training. Our outfield may not truly be set until the summer trade deadline or even September call-ups with the way things have been going in recent years.

The way things have gone in recent years the outfield was never set!
 
The way things have gone in recent years the outfield was never set!

Exactly. It could wind up like SS was last year, he could go sign an established spot filler (ala Torii Hunter when he first came here), or he could swing a trade for a good young player. I wouldn't be surprised by any of those outcomes.
 
from the freep;
The Tigers' acquisition of Anthony Gose for Devon Travis was a minor move to everyone outside of Toronto and Detroit, but it could become a major defensive addition for the Tigers. This was a nice move for the Tigers, as Travis would not have seen time at second base with Kinsler around,.. "and his conversion to centerfield wasn't all that promising because of his lack of speed".
 
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