dubbsco said:

You know a player isn't that great when you have to work that hard to defend him.

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The only reason I have to work hard is because you people are blind. He's a very good QB. The tape doesn't lie.

This paints a pretty good picture of QB's
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

jdeb said:

This paints a pretty good picture of QB's
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb

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LKP said:

The only reason I have to work hard is because you people are blind. He's a very good QB. The tape doesn't lie.

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Neither do stats.

The stats do lie. They don't take into account drops, WR separation, down and distance from run game, picks that aren't Stafford's fault, protection. Stafford is a very good QB.

LKP, I really hope you take into account that things like WR separation, distance from run game, drops happen to everyone. Every quarterback deals with this stuff. It's not exclusive to Stafford.

As soon as you understand this, I think you can be a welcome contributor to this board again and stop this whole shtick. Your knowledge of the game would be awesome for the board if you knew how to not be covered in kool-aid.

LKP said:

The only reason I have to work hard is because you people are blind. He's a very good QB. The tape doesn't lie.

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Exactly. Too many missed receivers, too man wrong decisions, too much trouble adapting to different schemes and defenses.

19 teams had a higher drop % than the lions. Average drop rate 4.37%, Lions drop rate 4.07%.

Where did your favorite site (PFF) rate him in 2014 as an all around QB?

Statistically Kaepernick was statistically close to him. It's sort of scary how close they are. To put it in perspective, I've increased Kaepernicks attempts to match Staffords, but kept his same ratios in place.

Stafford: 363/602 (60.3%), 4,257 yds (7.07 per attempt), 22 TDs, 12 Ints, 45 sacks, 24 drops, 85.7 rating
Kaepernick: 364/602 (60.5%), 4,243 yds (7.05 per attempt), 24 TDs, 13 Ints, 65 sacks, 30 drops, 86.4 rating.

Let me guess, he had a much better running game. Let's take a look at that.

San Fran: 470 attempts, 2,176 yds (4.6)
Detroit: 396 attempts, 1,422 yds (3.6)

Yes big advantage, but lets even this out. Let's take out the QBs stats from these and only look at non QBs, rushing.

San Fran: 366 attempts, 1,537 yds (4.2)
Detroit: 353 attempts, 1,329 yds (3.8)

Not such a big difference. If you you equal out the amount of attempts, you are looking at less than 10 yards a game difference. So it's safe to say they essentially had equal support from the running game.

Who would you prefer as your #1 and #2 Boldin and Crabtree or CJ and Tate?

So LKP is it your stance that Kaepernick is a very good QB, possibly top 5? They are the same. Big arm QBs with questionable accuracy and decision making. Both can make the throw down the middle but struggle with the out throws.

Here ya go

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/02/23/2014-depth-adjusted-completion-percentage/

Stafford is 32nd out of 43 in actual adjusted completion percentage vs expected adjusted completion percentage.

dubbsco said:

LKP, I really hope you take into account that things like WR separation, distance from run game, drops happen to everyone. Every quarterback deals with this stuff. It's not exclusive to Stafford.

As soon as you understand this, I think you can be a welcome contributor to this board again and stop this whole shtick. Your knowledge of the game would be awesome for the board if you knew how to not be covered in kool-aid.

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Some QBs have more support than others. Protection, run game and drops, it was clear as day Stafford getting get the support. And with how they defende Calvin, there is tighter windows than most QB get.

grandy said:

Here ya go

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2015/02/23/2014-depth-adjusted-completion-percentage/

Stafford is 32nd out of 43 in actual adjusted completion percentage vs expected adjusted completion percentage.

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That's only drops. Not protection, down and distance and weapon separation.

So in other words, having Calvin is a detriment to Stafford...

Down and distance and weapon separation. Now you are just taking this too far. Come on man, come back to that one week where you stopped the trolling.

dubbsco said:

So in other words, having Calvin is a detriment to Stafford...

Down and distance and weapon separation. Now you are just taking this too far. Come on man, come back to that one week where you stopped the trolling.

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Sometimes it is. He is facing a defense set for pass defense every time with extra guys (more than most) on his best weapon. Calvin can still beat that but the comp % to Calvin is lower than Tate for instance. Calvin opens other things up but when throwing to Calvin, it's a tight window. A number 3 option has to step up, we need better protection and more run game against these looks.

LKP said:

Sometimes it is. He is facing a defense set for pass defense every time with extra guys (more than most) on his best weapon. Calvin can still beat that but the comp % to Calvin is lower than Tate for instance. Calvin opens other things up but when throwing to Calvin, it's a tight window. A number 3 option has to step up, we need better protection and more run game against these looks.

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yup...should be a dream scenario that he has an entire side of the field with little to no support. Except Stafford cant read a defense, work progressions or hit a broad side of a barn if the WR isn't 6'6".

LKP said:

Sometimes it is. He is facing a defense set for pass defense every time with extra guys (more than most) on his best weapon. Calvin can still beat that but the comp % to Calvin is lower than Tate for instance. Calvin opens other things up but when throwing to Calvin, it's a tight window. A number 3 option has to step up, we need better protection and more run game against these looks.

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Is there anything to back that up?

At times it looked like teams were daring the Lions to beat them deep. They would setup to try and defend the short passing game and run game. They weren't as concerned with being beat deep because teams are aware of Staffords' struggles with deep ball accuracy.

With Stafford you aren't as worried about the deep ball. You take the chance that it will be either overthrown and not catchable or under thrown allowing the defense to catch up and defend. He really didn't do much to disprove that.

I think the Golden Tate image is Stafford's career in a nutshell. Stafford had a short in route with Tate, and he threw it 90000 freaking feet over his head, and he just stood there looking skyward.

brewer229 said:

Is there anything to back that up?

At times it looked like teams were daring the Lions to beat them deep. They would setup to try and defend the short passing game and run game. They weren't as concerned with being beat deep because teams are aware of Staffords' struggles with deep ball accuracy.

With Stafford you aren't as worried about the deep ball. You take the chance that it will be either overthrown and not catchable or under thrown allowing the defense to catch up and defend. He really didn't do much to disprove that.

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Everyone is shaded to Calvin and taking away Calvin deep. Fuller was not enough of a deep threat due to LOS issues. Lions need Ebron to step up in year 2 as expected and the offense will explode. Or get better protection and run game. Either way.

The one year Stafford had proper support. 4.3 YPC, multiple healthy weapons for 16 games, decent protection was 2011. 41 TDs almost 5,000 yards. He had Calvin, younger Burleson, Titus actually producing and not insane, Pettigrew (faster and younger) and Best (6 games). Then teams figured out they had to defend Calvin more and Best was gone, Burleson had two injured years and Young went insane. How teams defended Calvin in 2011 is how other teams defend the Dez Bryant, Jordy Nelson. Teams realized starintg 2012 Stafford plus Calvin would destroy them if not 100% of the game plan was to stop that.

2013 Bush helped big time but Burleson injury, Durham and Pettigrew did not, plus Calvin injured some. 2014 Tate helped tremendously but no 3rd option due to rookies/lack of 3rd WR. Every QB deserves three good options and protection/run game (at least two). Lions should have that this year. Stafford does his job, he does it well and has to put up with alot of obstacles (injuries, lack of run game (injuries again) and protection (2014 issue)).

You need to understand something LKP. No quarterback will EVER have an ideal situation. That's what makes them great qbs. They are able to work with what they have and elevate the others around him.

When there's a constant need to justify, excuse, whatever to explain away Stafford's averageness after SIX years in the NFL, maybe it's time to look at the source.

mhughes0021 said:

yup...should be a dream scenario that he has an entire side of the field with little to no support. Except Stafford cant read a defense, work progressions or hit a broad side of a barn if the WR isn't 6'6".

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Stafford reads his progessions just fine. Nobody was getting open other than Tate against the one on ones. Teams do more against Calvin than any other number 1 WR in the league.

Oline injuries and Bush injury hurt the running game. Bell had a slow start.

2013 there was no Tate. Major weapon issues other than Calvin/Bush.

2012 more weapons issues and no Bush/Best type.

Every QB needs 2-3 weapons including 2 to beat one on ones and either a run game or protection.

dubbsco said:

You need to understand something LKP. No quarterback will EVER have an ideal situation. That's what makes them great qbs. They are able to work with what they have and elevate the others around him.

When there's a constant need to justify, excuse, whatever to explain away Stafford's averageness after SIX years in the NFL, maybe it's time to look at the source.

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All QBs had better situations. Healthier WRs/TEs, run games or protection. The good ones get 2 out of the 3 usually.

Lions need health at WR and Oline and Stafford can explode with the talent around him.

It's just like with our secondary. When our top 3 guys stay healthy in the secondary, top 5 defense in 2011 (first 10 games) and 2014.

brewer229 said:

Is there anything to back that up?

At times it looked like teams were daring the Lions to beat them deep. They would setup to try and defend the short passing game and run game. They weren't as concerned with being beat deep because teams are aware of Staffords' struggles with deep ball accuracy.

With Stafford you aren't as worried about the deep ball. You take the chance that it will be either overthrown and not catchable or under thrown allowing the defense to catch up and defend. He really didn't do much to disprove that.

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have to put some of that on Lombardi too.....we don't run deep routes. Then ill put some on mayhew.....we don't have deep threats. Weve turned calvin into a guy that just runs 7 yard slants the entire game. Not sure if its his age, injuries or what...but he hasn't been a downfield threat.

Its the main reason I didn't like the tate signing.....we needed someone that can stretch the field. Tate does a masterful job working underneath and creating YAC. But defenses can still "pack it in" knowing no one is going to take the top off.

I was on record saying davante adams, martavious bryant and dante moncrief would all out produce our top 10 blue chip match up nightmare......it wasn't even close. All of them were better options for our offense than the turd we ended up with.

And yes we should compare him to WR stats when all he does is run routes and is picke din the top 10.

LKP said:

Stafford reads his progessions just fine. Nobody was getting open other than Tate against the one on ones. Teams do more against Calvin than any other number 1 WR in the league.

Oline injuries and Bush injury hurt the running game. Bell had a slow start.

2013 there was no Tate. Major weapon issues other than Calvin/Bush.

2012 more weapons issues and no Bush/Best type.

Every QB needs 2-3 weapons including 2 to beat one on ones and either a run game or protection.

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so we picked a match up nightmare at 10 and he cant get open or catch. #mayhewproblems