Those 2 trades aren't related..might as well go back to the Kinsler-Prince trade and the Cabrera,Willis-Maybin,Miller trade.

Mitchrapp said:

Those 2 trades aren't related..might as well go back to the Kinsler-Prince trade and the Cabrera,Willis-Maybin,Miller trade.

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Ummm...when the explanation for trading Fister was to create an opening for Smyly and then we trade Smyly for another starter. How is it not related?

Rebbiv said:

Ummm...when the explanation for trading Fister was to create an opening for Smyly and then we trade Smyly for another starter. How is it not related?

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What explanation, by one dudes article? No one outside DD has any clue why we traded Fister..And if it was to get Smyly into the rotation then you don't suddenly trade him 4 months later.

Mitchrapp said:

What explanation, by one dudes article? No one outside DD has any clue why we traded Fister..And if it was to get Smyly into the rotation then you don't suddenly trade him 4 months later.

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So let's approach it the other way (hypothetically).

We trade Fielder and $30 Mil for Kinsler in a supposed cost saving move and allow Cabrera to return to 1B. 6 month later we trade Castellanos, Jackson and Alburquerque for Joey Votto


Fielder, Castellanos, Jackson and Alburquerque for Kinsler and Votto

Huh..?

How about another hypothetical, we trade Phil Coke for Mike Trout and 4m.

Mitchrapp said:

Huh..?

How about another hypothetical, we trade Phil Coke for Mike Trout and 4m.

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That's all? We're talking about Phil fucking Coke here.

Thumb said:

That's all? We're talking about Phil fucking Coke here.

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Right on! We're talking running ready Phil here.
Trout and less than 5 Mill for Coke. A solid never gets on the DL left handed relief. With Starter seasoning. And has that great point of hand of where the ball hit. How could you not get more. Man that's like giving Fister away again.

Thumb said:

That's all? We're talking about Phil fucking Coke here.

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Sorry I wasn't thinking straight..

How about Don FREAKIN' Kelly? And we'll throw in Ian Krol.

Mitchrapp said:

What explanation, by one dudes article? No one outside DD has any clue why we traded Fister..And if it was to get Smyly into the rotation then you don't suddenly trade him 4 months later.

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Let's look at the timeline.

12/2 Fister traded to Nats
3/13 Max turns down $144M offer
May-July JV sucks ass and is NOT the ace but the worst pitcher on the starting staff
Trade deadline they acquire David Price.

Fister probably traded to let Smyly start and so they could lock up Max
JV sucked so they felt they needed to replace him so they have the same 1-2 pucnch and have a #1 next year

Win now mode for Mr I who has one foot in the grave.

The trade was a horrible move. There's no other way to slice it. Speaking in hypotheticals about how it could have turned into a cost saving move to get Joey Votto (??) doesn't make it any less of a bad deal.

dubbsco said:

The trade was a horrible move. There's no other way to slice it. Speaking in hypotheticals about how it could have turned into a cost saving move to get Joey Votto (??) doesn't make it any less of a bad deal.

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The early returns look really bad, and the trade was counter to "win now mode", but it's way too early to call it a horrible move. Ray could turn into Sandy Koufax v2.0 (highly doubtful, but who knows?), Krol could become a stud BP guy (also pretty doubtful based on what my eyes have seen thus far), and/or Fister could suddenly become ineffective (doubtful, but not crazy to think since he didn't have dominating stuff) or see his injuries increase (also not crazy to think given his height and track record of DL visits). These things often take years to play out fully.

That said, the deal was a headscratcher given the constant talk of winning it all this year. Trading away Fister for a utility guy and two minor league pitchers didn't make us better right now. I also don't think we got nearly enough value in return, but then again that stuff is always tough to judge. Look at what we gave up for David Price and Miguel Cabrera who are two of the absolute best players in the game.

The mindset to wait and see on Krol and Ray, but then consider we gave nothing up (Smyly, Jackson and Adames) for Price is somewhat contradictory.

Now, SEA only got Austin Jackson (FA in 2016) in the deal for Nick Franklin. IMHO, I make that deal all day long if I am the one getting Franklin.

TBR gets Smyly (FA in 2019), Franklin (FA in 2020) and Adames (FA in 2021 at the earliest). 3 players they can build around and all three are 25 or under. And they gave up Price, who is a FA after next year and there is no way they sign him. Could they have gotten more for Price? I am not sure, but I do like all three pieces.

There were questions from the start in the Fister deal. I haven't read one negative comment from SEA or TBR on their part of the Price deal. No one is questioning the Price deal.

tomdalton22 said:

Let's look at the timeline.

12/2 Fister traded to Nats
3/13 Max turns down $144M offer
May-July JV sucks ass and is NOT the ace but the worst pitcher on the starting staff
Trade deadline they acquire David Price.

Fister probably traded to let Smyly start and so they could lock up Max
JV sucked so they felt they needed to replace him so they have the same 1-2 pucnch and have a #1 next year

Win now mode for Mr I who has one foot in the grave.

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If it was a win now mode why trade a better pitcher, Fister, and insert a worst option, Smyly? They've spent so much money I can't see them trading Fister, who wasn't making much, to sign Max.

Now after all that I can understand trading for Price though personally I think that was to counter Oakland.

But who in the fk is Smyly that they needed him in the rotation?

Mitchrapp said:

If it was a win now mode why trade a better pitcher, Fister, and insert a worst option, Smyly? They've spent so much money I can't see them trading Fister, who wasn't making much, to sign Max.

Now after all that I can understand trading for Price though personally I think that was to counter Oakland.

But who in the fk is Smyly that they needed him in the rotation?

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this is just me guessing but I think they wanted Smyly in the rotation due to his cheap salary over the next several years while they had Max, JV & Sanchez making that huge $$$. This all backfired when Max decided to reject their offer. That, along with JV sucking ass, is what started the ball moving on the Price trade. My guess is if JV was in his Cy Young form of 2-3 years ago they would never even considered trading for Price.

tomdalton22 said:

this is just me guessing but I think they wanted Smyly in the rotation due to his cheap salary over the next several years while they had Max, JV & Sanchez making that huge $$$. This all backfired when Max decided to reject their offer. That, along with JV sucking ass, is what started the ball moving on the Price trade. My guess is if JV was in his Cy Young form of 2-3 years ago they would never even considered trading for Price.

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I don't see that myself. Who cares if you get a cheap guy in the rotation when you're already at 170m and a worse option. Plus if that's what they were thinking why the rush..not like Smyly is going to suddenly make good bread .. he'll be cheap for awhile.

This probably had nothing to do with it but we heard reports that Fister wanted to do finish career on west coast and 2 seconds later he's on the west coast. Other GM's even said afterward we didn't know he was even available. It was a rush job..

Mitchrapp said:

I don't see that myself. Who cares if you get a cheap guy in the rotation when you're already at 170m and a worse option. Plus if that's what they were thinking why the rush..not like Smyly is going to suddenly make good bread .. he'll be cheap for awhile.

This probably had nothing to do with it but we heard reports that Fister wanted to do finish career on west coast and 2 seconds later he's on the west coast. Other GM's even said afterward we didn't know he was even available. It was a rush job..

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I agree...I think it was a rush job as well.

Rebbiv said:

The mindset to wait and see on Krol and Ray, but then consider we gave nothing up (Smyly, Jackson and Adames) for Price is somewhat contradictory.

Now, SEA only got Austin Jackson (FA in 2016) in the deal for Nick Franklin. IMHO, I make that deal all day long if I am the one getting Franklin.

TBR gets Smyly (FA in 2019), Franklin (FA in 2020) and Adames (FA in 2021 at the earliest). 3 players they can build around and all three are 25 or under. And they gave up Price, who is a FA after next year and there is no way they sign him. Could they have gotten more for Price? I am not sure, but I do like all three pieces.

There were questions from the start in the Fister deal. I haven't read one negative comment from SEA or TBR on their part of the Price deal. No one is questioning the Price deal.

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I hear you, but I think that's my biggest issue with the deal, and what I tried to relay in my reply... there are mixed messages coming from DD on the direction of the organization. Are we in "win now mode" or are we rebuilding? The Fister trade is rebuilding type of deal, whereas the Price trade is a win now type of deal. I think DD has said a few times that he wants to win now and win later, which is fine, but very difficult to do in reality.

To give DD somewhat of a pass, I think a big part of both deals is the age range of players who are worthwhile prospects in our system. The highest rated guys are/were a few years out from the big show, and the guys we got back are/were supposed to be much closer to MLB ready. Mixing this in with another thread, I think this is probably the biggest issue with the Tigers right now... we don't have enough guys on our bench and in the minors who can come up and capably fill holes when injuries or other issues necessitate it. We're having to rely on the likes of Don Kelly, Andrew Romine, Melvin Mercedes, etc. and that frustrates the heck out of a lot of people on this site. That's on DD, but it can't be ignored that we traded away a lot of the guys who could/would be at that level now to get guys like Miggy, Sanchez, Fister, etc.

I probably sound like I'm talking in circles, but hopefully you understand what I'm saying here.

King, you pretty much summarized my thoughts about it with your sentence. This trade is exactly the opposite of how Dave Dombrowski has been making his moves. His moves have been getting guys to win now. Big names. He traded away one of his best starters for what is currently a bunch of scraps. Made 0 sense.

Tigers have 2 SP in the rotation that they drafted. No one in the bullpen of any sustainability. Position players, 5 but only 3 starting. Granted they have traded drafted players to assemble the current roster and added some pieces to make up the current competitive team and nothing to show for it. The red flag is in the scouting department. When you look at the dimensions of the ball park and compare to the current roster, we are weak up the middle. No depth there and barren in the OF . At the end of the day I see an organization that is focused on power arms or in other words lacks balance. I trust it is a difficult task to evaluate talent but there are teams that seem to do a much better job. Why David Chad still has a job eludes me. I thought he would be great but I was very wrong in that area. This is DD's team and his philosophy is rearing it's ugly head. Additionally, the team lacks leadership. It's not about the poor appearance of the Fister trade as much as it about covering up organizational management mistakes. Maybe it is time to reorganize the front office and appoint the current staff towards their strengths. Fire some people that have continually missed the mark. Add others to address the organizations short comings. I am sick of hearing this is a good team. This is a team with more holes than many of the playoff hunting teams. The Angels have the best balanced team in the AL and the Nationals are solid all the way around. KC has a superior defensive team and bullpen but I really doubt they can sustain the tear they are on, they may be peaking at the wrong time. So in conclusion, the Tigers have very good starting pitching but are below average defensively and their bullpen is a total joke. The best shot we have is that this Bi-Polar team peaks at the precise time to steal a World Series... the odds are not in their favor.

Oh, I still have some of Ron's victory cigars in my humidor.... bad sign.