DURR it's cold outside there can't be no global warming or hurrrrr

[Gulo Blue]

Have you followed this story at all? It's insane.

Crap.

Incredible.

 

[byco42]

Crap.

Incredible.

This is more telling, and an external link from the story MC linked:

Link

 

[Gulo Blue]

This is more telling, and an external link from the story MC linked:

Link

Halfway through this article and Texaco/Chevron sounds pretty bad here too.

 

[Michchamp]

This is more telling, and an external link from the story MC linked:

Link

I can't read that without getting an account to The New Yorker, but it's from 2012. What does it say?

FWIW, the evidence - i.e. the commentary from people that aren't on Chevron's payroll - supports his side of the story (link):

?The extent of his pursuit by Chevron is so extravagant, and at this point so unnecessary and punitive, while not a factor in my recommendation, is nonetheless background to it,? [NY State Bar Referee] Horan wrote.

A former federal prosecutor, Horan?s findings paint a starkly different image of Donziger than the one Chevron has advanced in U.S. courts for more than decade. Chevron has accused Donziger of fraud and racketeering, suing him under a statute designed to fight organized crime.

This was not the image of Donziger that Horan said he heard at bar proceedings last December.

?Several witnesses, all distinguished in their respective fields, testified as character witnesses,? Horan recounted, rattling off a list that included prominent attorneys, environmental advocates and Pink Floyd musician Roger Waters.

?Assessment of character is not an exact science, but we can all agree that the essential components are honesty, integrity, and credibility,? Horan observed. ?It is far from clear that [Donziger] is lacking in those qualities as the committee argues.?

Adding that these witnesses put their reputations on the line by testifying, Horan continued: ?None of those who testified for these qualities of Respondent are the sort who would carelessly toss off an opinion about character or misrepresent his reputation in the world community.?

Donziger?s pursuit of a large settlement against Chevron was not enough for Horan to find otherwise.

?If his interest in earning a large fee makes his character suspect, the entire bar is suspect,? Horan wrote.
​

Especially Chevron's lawyers.

?The hearing officer was not allowed to address what I believe is the falsity of Judge Kaplan?s findings, in particular his reliance on a narrative put forth by an admittedly corrupt witness paid huge sums by Chevron who later recanted much of his testimony,? Donziger wrote in a statement.
​

Until I read this case, I never knew that in America, if prosecutors decline to pursue criminal charges against someone, a judge can appoint a private law firm to do that (let alone one on Chevron's payroll). I didn't know that could happen in America, and it is absolutely insane to me.

I think even in Stalin's show trials, possibly the most obvious example of the phrase "miscarriage of justice," most people are familiar with, they tried to at least maintain the appearance of impartiality...

 

[byco42]

I can't read that without getting an account to The New Yorker, but it's from 2012. What does it say?

Excerpts (non-consecutive) but in order ...

“Chevron has been especially defiant in the face of the Lago Agrio accusations, which its lawyers have labelled “a shakedown.” In addition to defending itself in Ecuador, it has fought the case in more than a dozen U.S. federal courts, hiring hundreds of lawyers and producing what its own attorneys have called “an avalanche of paper.” Donziger has maintained that Chevron is motivated not merely by fear of an adverse judgment but by a desire “to destroy the very idea that indigenous people can bring an environmental lawsuit against an oil company.” In 2008, a Chevron lobbyist in Washington told Newsweek, “We can’t let little countries screw around with big companies like this.” One Chevron spokesman has said, “We’re going to fight this until Hell freezes over—and then we’ll fight it out on the ice.’”

“One challenge of drilling oil wells is what to do with “produced water”—a malodorous liquid, fortified with heavy metals, that comes mingled with the oil that is pumped out of the ground. In the United States, it is standard practice, once the oil has been isolated from this mixture, to “reinject” the produced water, pumping it deep underground into dedicated wells, in order to prevent damage to the local habitat. But reinjection is expensive, and in Ecuador Texaco simply dumped the liquid into swimming-pool-size pits. Produced water does not biodegrade, and when Donziger and his colleagues visited the Oriente they discovered that hundreds of oily pools pockmarked the rain forest.

“The government of Ecuador had been aware of Texaco’s techniques from the start, and for many years Texaco was in a consortium that included the national oil company. Texaco’s practices did not directly violate Ecuadoran law; in fact, the country had no meaningful environmental regulations at the time. Most Ecuadorans knew little about the science of petroleum extraction—and most of what they learned came from Texaco. Lago Agrio was named for Sour Lake, the East Texas town where Texaco was established, and, as the oil camp grew into a boom town, pipeline spills became common.

“For eight years, Texaco fought to have the lawsuit dismissed, on the ground that it should be tried not in the U.S. but in Ecuador. Donziger and his colleagues feared such a turn: Ecuador’s judicial system was notoriously corrupt, and its government relied on oil revenues for a third of its annual budget. “Texaco ran that country for twenty years,” Chris Jochnick, a law-school friend of Donziger’s who lived in Ecuador at the time and now works for Oxfam America, told me. “They had the U.S. Embassy in their pocket. They had the military. Politically, there was no way that Texaco was going to be held accountable in Ecuador.” Texaco denied that Ecuador was incapable of offering a fair trial, insisting that the country’s legal norms were “similar to those in many European nations.

“In 2001, Texaco prevailed. A federal judge in New York dismissed the case, ruling that it had “everything to do with Ecuador and very little to do with the United States.” By that time, Texaco’s acquisition by Chevron was under way. In a print advertisement, Donziger and his colleagues warned Chevron shareholders that “Texaco comes with a lot of assets, and one huge liability.” But it must have seemed that the lawsuit had run its course. Just before the acquisition, a Chevron spokesman said that the company felt no need to “particularly highlight” the Ecuadoran claims to shareholders.”​

This is a fraction of the content. Donziger got PE to finance the trial. Of course he’s according to Chevron just wanting a payday. A key lawyer for Chevron was deputy-mayor to Guliani. A corrupt judge was stung by Chevron (according to Donziger) was dismissed for suspicion of bribery. Somehow Chevron has footage that is, however, not proof. (See below)

“In August, 2009, Chevron offered startling evidence to support its claim that Ecuador was hopelessly corrupt: it released video footage that allegedly implicated the judge then presiding over the Lago Agrio case, Juan Nu?ez, in a bribery scheme. An Ecuadoran businessman named Diego Borja had been hoping to secure a cleanup contract in the event of a judgment against Chevron. But when Borja met with the judge and a Correa administration official, the company explained, he was informed that he first needed to pay a million dollars each to Nu?ez, to the administration, and to the Lago Agrio plaintiffs. Borja and an associate secretly recorded the discussions, using cameras embedded in a watch and a pen. Charles James, a Chevron executive, declared, “This information absolutely disqualifies the judge and nullifies anything that he has ever done in this case.

“Judge Nu?ez stepped aside. But he insisted that he was innocent. The videos, which Chevron posted online, showed Borja and the official elliptically discussing the possibility of a bribe with Nu?ez, but offered no proof that the judge had solicited or accepted one. Nu?ez told me that the scandal was a setup, and Donziger has called the incident “a Chevron sting.” It has subsequently emerged that the purported Correa administration official was in fact a Quito car salesman and part-time caterer, whose name does not appear in a party database of registered members. The businessman, Borja, was a former Chevron contractor.”​

And it is insane that a judge can hire a law-firm-for-hire to pursue charges against someone. Just one of many insanities in this case.

 

[Thumb]

that's about half the all-in cost after running gas lines and electrical - my former boss got one after Sandy and paid $10k for one that would power 80% of his house. That was consistent with quotes I was hearing from other people who went that route. Maybe it's cheaper in lower cost-of-living areas but probably not a lot, gas line work is pretty expensive everywhere.

We're considering it because neighbors in our new neighborhood tell us our section of town loses power a lot. We moved in at Halloween and haven't had any issues. My neighbor across the street says his house shakes on a certain day once a month at 1pm like clockwork, when his next door neighbor's kicks on for regular testing.

Depends. I'm not sure what code is for natural gas supply, but propane is just soft copper tubing, buried 18 inches deep, the cost of the tubing is approx. $1 a foot. I looked at getting the unit I linked, and installation costs were expected to be about 20% of the unit cost, mostly for the switching unit (does not have to be auto-switching which are far more expensive) and the wiring, gas line (propane) is nothing and almost a DIY project. In the end it just seemed like too much of an investment for piece of mind, as usually when we have an outage it's less then a day because the area I live in is not densely populated and downed lines are more readily accessible and easy to find.

 

[Gulo Blue]

And it is insane that a judge can hire a law-firm-for-hire to pursue charges against someone. Just one of many insanities in this case.

It's all dirty. Crazy and dirty.

 

[Gulo Blue]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/texas-storm-electric-bills.html?referringSource=articleShare

This is some BS. You need to know pricing and consent before getting hit with a $16k bill.

 

[tomdalton22]

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/20/us/texas-storm-electric-bills.html?referringSource=articleShare

This is some BS. You need to know pricing and consent before getting hit with a $16k bill.

we get these solicitation letters for our electric and gas all of the time. They say "switch to x and we can save you money". I never really look into it and have never switched. My guess is there is some fine print with these 3rd party companies that allows them to bend you over if something like this happens.

 

[byco42]

I am apparently extremely fortunate to do business with the “our” energy company. It is very efficient and reasonable.

 

[Gulo Blue]

we get these solicitation letters for our electric and gas all of the time. They say "switch to x and we can save you money". I never really look into it and have never switched. My guess is there is some fine print with these 3rd party companies that allows them to bend you over if something like this happens.

Something needs to be done about terms and conditions too. Maybe some kind of regulation that limits length based on the value of the service to 99% of customer and/or some standard terms that 99% of similar companies could adhere to like ESRB ratings.

Like if your service amounts to less than a $10,000 service per year, you can have 1000 words of legal terms and conditions and they are allowed to reference set lists of industry standard terms for stuff like privacy and liability.

 

[Spartanmack]

Depends. I'm not sure what code is for natural gas supply, but propane is just soft copper tubing, buried 18 inches deep, the cost of the tubing is approx. $1 a foot. I looked at getting the unit I linked, and installation costs were expected to be about 20% of the unit cost, mostly for the switching unit (does not have to be auto-switching which are far more expensive) and the wiring, gas line (propane) is nothing and almost a DIY project. In the end it just seemed like too much of an investment for piece of mind, as usually when we have an outage it's less then a day because the area I live in is not densely populated and downed lines are more readily accessible and easy to find.

so you have to have a big propane tank on your property then? can't imagine a 20lbs cannister would last very long. The prices I was talking about were definitely for automatic switching units connected to natural gas service - and they could be for a different unit as well, most were trying to power 80%+ of houses that were 4k to 5k sq ft.

I'm glad I didn't overspend - we had big outages in '11 (Halloween ice storm) and '12 (Sandy) and everyone was panic buying thinking it was the new normal and going to happen every year. I think we lost power once for a couple hours over the next 8 years.

 

[Thumb]

so you have to have a big propane tank on your property then? can't imagine a 20lbs cannister would last very long. The prices I was talking about were definitely for automatic switching units connected to natural gas service - and they could be for a different unit as well, most were trying to power 80%+ of houses that were 4k to 5k sq ft.

I'm glad I didn't overspend - we had big outages in '11 (Halloween ice storm) and '12 (Sandy) and everyone was panic buying thinking it was the new normal and going to happen every year. I think we lost power once for a couple hours over the next 8 years.

Yes, I have a 500 gallon propane "pig" off in the side yard. I live in a rural area and no natural gas is available. Because I have a geothermal unit, as long as it functions, the only thing using gas in my house is the stove, so I would always have a big supply. The 20lbs tanks would last longer than you think though, but would not be optimal.

Automatic switching units are only really a benefit if the power goes out while you're sleeping or not home, otherwise a manual switch works just fine.

 

[Michchamp]

so you have to have a big propane tank on your property then? can't imagine a 20lbs cannister would last very long. The prices I was talking about were definitely for automatic switching units connected to natural gas service - and they could be for a different unit as well, most were trying to power 80%+ of houses that were 4k to 5k sq ft.

I'm glad I didn't overspend - we had big outages in '11 (Halloween ice storm) and '12 (Sandy) and everyone was panic buying thinking it was the new normal and going to happen every year. I think we lost power once for a couple hours over the next 8 years.

I'm definitely overspending after this one.

I'm now dealing with a 10% chance of a deep freeze knocking out the grid here in any given year (last one happened in 2011 here... and this is not going away and is due entirely to political corruption), and after some of the more stressful moments of the last week, I'd add to that a non-trivial risk someone in my family could die because of it, and there would be nothing I could do about it. It's no longer just a matter of avoiding inconvenience in my mind.

And the conventional wisdom is there's about a 16% chance a hurricane hits or affects the area every year (one every six years). Due to widespread urban sprawl and development reducing the amount of prairie land that can absorb water - fat chance of urban sprawl ending here - that also includes a higher risk of death due to flooding.

One problem (no power, flood, etc.) I can handle. And I can handle it easier by myself. But factoring in multiple problems, and other family members to care for, and it gets to be a lot harder. I'm not taking any more chances.

SO that's a 10% chance of a deep freeze knocking out power, and a 16% chance of hurricane-induced flooding/power loss in any given year. Based on the record, I think climate change is making these risks worse, AND corrupt TX politicians are not addressing these problems but protecting the ones who caused them, so I'm planning for the next crisis to be more aggravated, not less, and preparing accordingly.

2 weeks of non-perishable food for every family member. Plus water, or water purification, and emergency clothes in bags for everyone. Plus a way to generate power and stay warm (tent, sleeping bags, etc.). And plans on how to evacuate safely from a flood. I probably need to get an inflatable raft w/pump and keep it in the attic or something like that.

 

[Spartanmack]

Yes, I have a 500 gallon propane "pig" off in the side yard. I live in a rural area and no natural gas is available. Because I have a geothermal unit, as long as it functions, the only thing using gas in my house is the stove, so I would always have a big supply. The 20lbs tanks would last longer than you think though, but would not be optimal.

Automatic switching units are only really a benefit if the power goes out while you're sleeping or not home, otherwise a manual switch works just fine.

I'm sure they do but you have no idea how pampered and useless most of these people are when it comes to any type of mechanical application and they have no idea what kind of premium they're paying for a little convenience. They just want to know what it costs to not have to think about it.

 

[tomdalton22]

I'm definitely overspending after this one.

I'm now dealing with a 10% chance of a deep freeze knocking out the grid here in any given year (last one happened in 2011 here... and this is not going away and is due entirely to political corruption), and after some of the more stressful moments of the last week, I'd add to that a non-trivial risk someone in my family could die because of it, and there would be nothing I could do about it. It's no longer just a matter of avoiding inconvenience in my mind.

And the conventional wisdom is there's about a 16% chance a hurricane hits or affects the area every year (one every six years). Due to widespread urban sprawl and development reducing the amount of prairie land that can absorb water - fat chance of urban sprawl ending here - that also includes a higher risk of death due to flooding.

One problem (no power, flood, etc.) I can handle. And I can handle it easier by myself. But factoring in multiple problems, and other family members to care for, and it gets to be a lot harder. I'm not taking any more chances.

SO that's a 10% chance of a deep freeze knocking out power, and a 16% chance of hurricane-induced flooding/power loss in any given year. Based on the record, I think climate change is making these risks worse, AND corrupt TX politicians are not addressing these problems but protecting the ones who caused them, so I'm planning for the next crisis to be more aggravated, not less, and preparing accordingly.

2 weeks of non-perishable food for every family member. Plus water, or water purification, and emergency clothes in bags for everyone. Plus a way to generate power and stay warm (tent, sleeping bags, etc.). And plans on how to evacuate safely from a flood. I probably need to get an inflatable raft w/pump and keep it in the attic or something like that.

I don't think I have ever heard you say one positive thing about where you live. Not being a smart ass here...but maybe consider moving somewhere else?

 

[Michchamp]

I'm sure they do but you have no idea how pampered and useless most of these people are when it comes to any type of mechanical application and they have no idea what kind of premium they're paying for a little convenience. They just want to know what it costs to not have to think about it.

Imagine you're away on business... a disaster happens, and cell phone circuits are overloaded or down, so you can't call and walk anyone in your house through the steps on firing up the generator and connecting it to the house and managing any other tasks that might be required, like shutting off certain circuits that won't be powered, or taking the house off the grid so nothing feeds back into it... would you be happy you paid for the automatic switch?

 

[Michchamp]

I don't think I have ever heard you say one positive thing about where you live. Not being a smart ass here...but maybe consider moving somewhere else?

For reasons I won't go into, I'm stuck here for a while.

The positives:

- weather is (mostly) nice from November to April.

- I like Balcones whiskey. texas' oldest distiller

- I can go sailing year round here

- If I golfed, I could golf year round here.

- there are fewer restrictions on buying firearms here than in Illinois

- there are basically no enforced environmental regulations or zoning laws, so if I wanted to open an oil refinery, benzene production plant, or scrap metal recycling business, and maximize the profits I make running it by simply venting hazardous gases and waste into the air or dumping them into the nearest waterway, I could do that.

Positives that come with an asterisk:

- no state income tax *possibly offset by the lack of public services and planning that affect my family and I in currently unknown ways

- there are some fun bars and restaurants *but they're not as good as the ones I frequented in Chicago or Michigan.

 

[byco42]

Even though we were not affected by this winter storm, we are making measures to prepare for when a disaster may hit. We get the remnants of the big hurricanes that hit the south coastal states, the longest power has been out here is 20 hours (in the summer) and there’s always the possibility of Armageddon.

 

[Spartanmack]

Imagine you're away on business... a disaster happens, and cell phone circuits are overloaded or down, so you can't call and walk anyone in your house through the steps on firing up the generator and connecting it to the house and managing any other tasks that might be required, like shutting off certain circuits that won't be powered, or taking the house off the grid so nothing feeds back into it... would you be happy you paid for the automatic switch?

maybe, but I didn't spend the money on the big generator to begin with. If i were in the position to make that choice, considering the extremely low probability of an event such as you described and given our house, particularly all the plumbing was well insulated, and the fact that I shut off the water to everything except the boiler and water heater before we leave for any trip more than a couple of days, the expected value to the automatic switch very well could be way below the cost.

In our new house, after we've lived here long enough to know how often and how long we lose power (according to the neighbors, it happens pretty frequently but not for extended periods of time), if we choose to go the "whole house" generator route, the decision will probably come down to how comfortable my wife is flipping the switch in the unlikely event I'm not home when disaster strikes.