Back up, I got this

[tetra777]

How to fix the lions defense.

First, fire Gunther. He is the most uncreative DC in the NFL. Rush four every down, get no pressure and play vanilla bend but not break coverage. Problem is, with our secondary being atrocious, we still give up huge plays at an alarming rate. He even somehow manages to get WAY to conservative late in games when we should be putting in the dagger. He is a bum.

Second, even though I know Schwartz is a 4-3 guy, the "wide 9" blows. Our ends can't play the run because they get upfield to fast and pushed out of the play. Sure, Tulloch is a sure tackler and for the most part, Durant and Levy have been decently solid as well. Problem is, once an off-tackle run is called and our ends are in nowhere land it only takes one missed tackle to spring a decent back for a huge gain. And since our only pressure comes from the interior...why bother?

During the offseason, bring in a 3-4 guru to convert our D. Look at what Ray Horton did with 'Zona. Gimme someone like that.

Don't tell me we don't have the personnel either. We have talent, they can adjust to new positions with good coaching (who would have though Robert Mathis would be standing up)

For the front seven, Put Suh and Fairley at DE (may both need to bulk a bit in offseason, but they both can definitely get bigger.) Re-Sign Sammie and put him as a Nose (the man is huge) and just let him eat up blocks. Re-Sign Cliff and stand his ass up and let him use his athleticism, watch him become a top rush 'backer. Probably wont have money to resign Levy or Durant if we sign Cliff so let them walk and put Whiteheads ass as an outside 'backer. Apparently, he has athleticism and burst (if you believe Schwartz.)

For the secondary, franchise Delmas. The man is a leader and a beast when he plays. Also, it's a lot cheaper to franchise him than it is Houston. Corners, man...they blow. Houston plays hard and I would love to keep him if we can afford it (re-structure Suh and Stafford?) If not, we're left with Bentley (who showed promise for a third round rookie,) Greenwood and Greene, (withholding judgement, although I kinda liked what I saw out of our sixth-round rookie.) Altogether, not much to work with regardless.

Cap cuts

C. Williams
Levy
Durant

Draft
Round 1. Manti Te'o ( move up to get him. Kid is a STUD and the type of leader you can pair with Delmas to get our defense on the same page.)
Round 2. A safety, I don't care as long as he can cover an take decent angles when tackling. Doesn't have to be the next coming of Ed Reed.

Probably going to have to. Give up the rest of our draft or a future pick to get Manti, but it is worth it. The guy is a special player at the ILB position.

Which leaves us with...

Suh, Hill, Fairley
Whitehead, Tully, Te'o, Avril
Houston,Greene,Bentley
Delmas,Rookie

Now, THAT'S a defense I would be proud to see every week. Screw the offense, CJ is gonna get us points either way.

 

[dtroitlionsfan951]

i don't care if its cheaper to franchise a safety over a cb...houston plays most games..delmas plays..a couple games..lately..not worth it..delmas CAN'T warrant a franchise tag

 

[baitnbat]

Yeah I'm sure that'll work having no back ups on the d line

 

[tetra777]

Then sign some depth. Probably need to get some cheap depth with the new system anyway

 

[Diggler Cometh]

They won't ditch the 4-3 as long as Schwartz is here. Where are you going to put teo? Sam? You're essentially drafting a 2 down lb in the first round ahead of need at de, cb, s,and ol.

 

[tetra777]

This whole scenario is based on the 3-4 premise. Obviously I wouldn't draft Te'o if we are stuck in this stupid wide nine. But to humor myself, how the hell is Te'o not a 3 down 'backer wherever he goes though in ANY system. The kid had 7 picks this year. No reason to pull him off the field when he is a beast at covering. What are you pulling him off the field for?

 

[zyxt9]

I can't believe I read this whole thread.

 

[Diggler Cometh]

This whole scenario is based on the 3-4 premise. Obviously I wouldn't draft Te'o if we are stuck in this stupid wide nine. But to humor myself, how the hell is Te'o not a 3 down 'backer wherever he goes though in ANY system. The kid had 7 picks this year. No reason to pull him off the field when he is a beast at covering. What are you pulling him off the field for?

This was a scenario answer. if he was drafted by detroit he would play sam and he would have to come off the field on 3rd down in nickel / dime coverage. Simple as that. Just because he had 7 picks doesn't mean he would do well in space in the nfl. They played shit teams 3/4 of the year. And 2 of those were denard arm punts right to him. Alphonso smith tore up the acc and had 21 picks there. They're a little bit bigger, faster, stronger, athletic and talented in the nfl... In case you didn't know.

 

[Diggler Cometh]

I can't believe I read this whole thread.

Yeah... This is some mlive shit right here.. Boi:hehe:

 

[imthetruth]

How to fix the lions defense.

First, fire Gunther. He is the most uncreative DC in the NFL. Rush four every down, get no pressure and play vanilla bend but not break coverage. Problem is, with our secondary being atrocious, we still give up huge plays at an alarming rate. He even somehow manages to get WAY to conservative late in games when we should be putting in the dagger. He is a bum.

Second, even though I know Schwartz is a 4-3 guy, the "wide 9" blows. Our ends can't play the run because they get upfield to fast and pushed out of the play. Sure, Tulloch is a sure tackler and for the most part, Durant and Levy have been decently solid as well. Problem is, once an off-tackle run is called and our ends are in nowhere land it only takes one missed tackle to spring a decent back for a huge gain. And since our only pressure comes from the interior...why bother?

During the offseason, bring in a 3-4 guru to convert our D. Look at what Ray Horton did with 'Zona. Gimme someone like that.

Don't tell me we don't have the personnel either. We have talent, they can adjust to new positions with good coaching (who would have though Robert Mathis would be standing up)

For the front seven, Put Suh and Fairley at DE (may both need to bulk a bit in offseason, but they both can definitely get bigger.) Re-Sign Sammie and put him as a Nose (the man is huge) and just let him eat up blocks. Re-Sign Cliff and stand his ass up and let him use his athleticism, watch him become a top rush 'backer. Probably wont have money to resign Levy or Durant if we sign Cliff so let them walk and put Whiteheads ass as an outside 'backer. Apparently, he has athleticism and burst (if you believe Schwartz.)

For the secondary, franchise Delmas. The man is a leader and a beast when he plays. Also, it's a lot cheaper to franchise him than it is Houston. Corners, man...they blow. Houston plays hard and I would love to keep him if we can afford it (re-structure Suh and Stafford?) If not, we're left with Bentley (who showed promise for a third round rookie,) Greenwood and Greene, (withholding judgement, although I kinda liked what I saw out of our sixth-round rookie.) Altogether, not much to work with regardless.

Cap cuts

C. Williams
Levy
Durant

Draft
Round 1. Manti Te'o ( move up to get him. Kid is a STUD and the type of leader you can pair with Delmas to get our defense on the same page.)
Round 2. A safety, I don't care as long as he can cover an take decent angles when tackling. Doesn't have to be the next coming of Ed Reed.

Probably going to have to. Give up the rest of our draft or a future pick to get Manti, but it is worth it. The guy is a special player at the ILB position.

Which leaves us with...

Suh, Hill, Fairley
Whitehead, Tully, Te'o, Avril
Houston,Greene,Bentley
Delmas,Rookie

Now, THAT'S a defense I would be proud to see every week. Screw the offense, CJ is gonna get us points either way.

That would be 12 people..

 

[tetra777]

This was a scenario answer. if he was drafted by detroit he would play sam and he would have to come off the field on 3rd down in nickel / dime coverage. Simple as that. Just because he had 7 picks doesn't mean he would do well in space in the nfl. They played shit teams 3/4 of the year. And 2 of those were denard arm punts right to him. Alphonso smith tore up the acc and had 21 picks there. They're a little bit bigger, faster, stronger, athletic and talented in the nfl... In case you didn't know.

Are you seriously saying you don't think Te'o could cover a tight end in the NFL. I am aware that they are more athletic but that has nothing to do with it. I GUARANTEE he will be a 3 down 'backer day one. And btw, Smith has never had a problem getting picks...Even in the NFL. His problems do NOT stem from ball skills so your analogy is retarded. And it clearly was NOT a scenario answer because I clearly stated the only way I would want Manti would be if we switche to a 3-4. I said I would not draft him for THIS TEAM because he would have to play OLB an we have more pressing needs...but on a 3-4 he becomes much more valuable as an ILB

 

[tetra777]

That would be 12 people..

Obviously, I listed the nickel corner.

 

[Diggler Cometh]

Are you seriously saying you don't think Te'o could cover a tight end in the NFL. I am aware that they are more athletic but that has nothing to do with it. I GUARANTEE he will be a 3 down 'backer day one. And btw, Smith has never had a problem getting picks...Even in the NFL. His problems do NOT stem from ball skills so your analogy is retarded. And it clearly was NOT a scenario answer because I clearly stated the only way I would want Manti would be if we switche to a 3-4. I said I would not draft him for THIS TEAM because he would have to play OLB an we have more pressing needs...but on a 3-4 he becomes much more valuable as an ILB

Like I said... If he were in Detroit playing Sam. No, he would not. In your fantasy 3-4 madden team... sure, why the hell not.

 

[tetra777]

Like I said... If he were in Detroit playing Sam. No, he would not. In your fantasy 3-4 madden team... sure, why the hell not.

I realize this will not happen. It was just for a little fun. But I still don't see anything outlandish. I explained and gave examples on everything I proposed. We have all the personnel and with the right coaching, I think we COULD run a 3-4 if we had that proposed draft (which also isn't outlandish.) This was just for shots and giggles, I mean come on, we're all just kind of backseat GM's at this time of year, no?

 

[lionsFTW]

While I'm certainly not mad at your ambition and some of your suggestions, tetra, like others have said it's just not a realistic scenario as long as Schwartz is around. Also I'm not completely sold on the idea of Suh/Fairley playing the 5 technique. They're both specialist at attacking and getting up field. The definition of a 5 is

"the traditional 5-technique is a two-gap player, lining up directly over the offensive tackle, he is responsible for the B and C gaps on his side of the formation. He has to be able to stack tall offensive tackles and shed blocks to make the stop in either of his gaps. Nose tackles rely largely on their mass to control blockers and gaps, but defensive ends from the 5-technique have to be able to handle offensive tackles, who have grown into man mountains over the past decades. This is why part of the scouting profile for these players isn?t just size, but ?length? (height and arm length combined)."

While this transition isn't the worst case scenario for Fairley, whom I feel could probably make the transition (at the cost of setting back his already impressive progression), I really don't like Suh's prospects at the position. He's smaller in stature and, unfortunately for us, seems to lack some real discipline in regards to maintaining his role within the scheme. If he wasn't so naturally productive at the 3 technique he would unquestionably not be worth the huge salary and headache he's proven to be on and off the field and moving him to a position where he may actually struggle to produce is, imo, playing with fire.

The fact is these guys in particular are built for the 3 technique and they look to be forming some great chemistry with one another. Lets cut bait with some of the injury concerns, mediocre tackling, scrap heap castoffs that have occupied a revolving door in our back seven for as long as I can remember. Spend some dollars and high draft picks, develop some of the talent and see where this thing can go with a couple of studs who can man up on the outside and actually play with some of these dynamic WR's that are overflowing in the new pass heavy NFL.

The pairing of Suh and Fairley in the middle and their disruptive abilities take an extreme amount of pressure off of the DE position in this scheme. Letting Cliff walk and cutting bait with KVB's contract is a good start to beefing up our D. Because the DE position in the wide 9 is such a niche roll and because those two in the middle are so disruptive we should be able to find some decent bargains in FA and develop some young guys for a hell of a lot cheaper than we're currently spending on the position. That money needs to be reallocated elsewhere.

Which brings us to Gunther. The defense has been vanilla and bad under his watch but that's not entirely his fault. Before his time here in Detroit Gunther Cunningham was known as one of the most blitz happy defensive coaches in all of football. Non stop pressure from additional rushers. He was almost accused of being absurdly aggressive.

Fast forward to today, the lack of creativity and additional pressure is absolutely maddening but that's not as much him as it's the wide fucking 9... I've talked more about this scheme on these boards than anything else trying to get realistic expectations from guys here but they just don't get it. "A 4/3 front is a 4/3 front" seems to be the mentality in regards to players roles/expectations but there are many more subtle nuances that go into crafting this scheme. Nobody seems to realize it but everybody in the entire front seven is preferred to be a smaller, faster player. They're expected to play with precise discipline and their roles very rarely change unless its a heavy run down (eg 3rd and 2). The D ends line up wide and, as I seen you acknowledge above, shoot up field in an attempt to either get to the QB or force him back up into the pocket. The tackles are to blow up the middle and collapse the pocket. Neither of these position are pressed to regard the run as a priority on the vast majority of situations. Their role is to cause pressure and collapse the pocket forcing the QB into quick decisions. This is why we've decided to "ignore" the CB position in a sense. The belief is that if the rest of the team is doing what they're supposed to do then the CB's can be average and flourish.

Next the LB's. They either read run and fill the gap's left by the D line or read pass and fill their man/zone requirements. The LB's should be exceptional in pursuit and coverage, not blitzing and applying pressure. Tully is tailor maid for this scheme and is solid. Levy has really improved this year but his ceiling isn't much higher, imo. Durant is, well, mediocre due to his consistency (or lack thereof). Makes some nice plays, then turns around and completely blows an angle or misses an assignment in coverage. I don't hate the guy and definitely think we could get by with him as our worst starter at the LB position but with the trash behind him there simply isn't enough talent in the back 7 to nullify his shortcomings.

The scheme is built this way intentionally, though. It's meant to be paired with an explosive offense that can put points on the board. It's willing to give up small edges schematically in the run and short pass game. Then, when the offense hopefully holds up their end of the bargain and forces the other team to start pressing, this is when the front four is supposed to really shine and get after it. Create hellified sacks, strip fumbles, pressure turnovers from rushed decisions, etc.

Bringing us back to Gunther. His role was to come in, coach the kids up in Schwartz's baby and most of all develop the pups. This, imo, is where he's failed us the most and why he needs to go. It was expected that he could bring in his wealth of knowledge and really polish up some gems but it simply hasn't happened.

Overall we've had some unreal breaks this year and our offense has really struggled to hold up their end of the bargain by forcing teams to play from behind. I'm not entirely sure if Stafford is just naturally a very slow starter and takes a couple quarters to get into a rhythm or if its just something to do with Linehan's play calling but this has really put a bunch of added pressure on our defense this year by asking them to continually do things they're not built for. All in all we don't need a complete rebuild, we just need a makeover from spending so much on the Dline in total to keeping the dogs in the middle and adding some play makers to the back end.

Anyways, this has already turned out much longer than I had originally intended and I've pretty much stopped posting here because the majority of contributors here hate having in depth conversations. This team is really really interesting, though, and deserves a good in depth look as to why it's underperformed so badly. The back four is literally the only position as a whole that is "below average" in terms of talent. There's zero reason this team should end up with 4-5 wins, but here we are.

 

[mhughes0021]

If we're switching to the 3-4 lmao

And trading up lmao

...2 completely ridiculous scenarios....

Then why wouldn't we trade up for jarvis jones and have our clay mathews of the future?

 

[tsmith7559]

Cap cuts

C. Williams
Levy
Durant



no need, they're all FA anyway

curious...how much are you spending on Avril to play a new position??

 

[boogerlovejoy]

One of those LB's is coming back. I'd say Durant. Unless they need the cap space for a big name FA....I don't see them going into 2013 with Tulloch, Lewis and Whitehead.

 

[tsmith7559]

One of those LB's is coming back. I'd say Durant. Unless they need the cap space for a big name FA....I don't see them going into 2013 with Tulloch, Lewis and Whitehead.

I like Durant over Levy, if it comes down to it

 

[mhughes0021]

One of those LB's is coming back. I'd say Durant. Unless they need the cap space for a big name FA....I don't see them going into 2013 with Tulloch, Lewis and Whitehead.

Id like durant and levy both back...they wont cost much to bring back. let KVB and Avril go and spend $ or draft that position.