Cabby and Pujols tied

[cmlfactor]

For career BA among active leaders. Both are at .321. Listed 35th and 36th all-time, respectively.

Just took a gander at the all time batting stats in my MLB ap and discovered this.

Pujols has the decided edge in HR and RBI, but I think we can all agree that will change.

 

[Rebbiv]

For career BA among active leaders. Both are at .321. Listed 35th and 36th all-time, respectively.

Just took a gander at the all time batting stats in my MLB ap and discovered this.

Pujols has the decided edge in HR and RBI, but I think we can all agree that will change.

They are tied at 48th all-time annd 2nd and third active behind Mauer.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/batting_avg_career.shtml

 

[motownwebguy]

What's incredible is how many lefty bats are in the Top 50 or-so names.

Also, that list goes to show how underrated recent player Tony Gwynn is.

Lastly, I expected MLB's Best Ever player (Babe Ruth) to be higher on that list.

 

[Rebbiv]

What's incredible is how many lefty bats are in the Top 50 or-so names.

Also, that list goes to show how underrated recent player Tony Gwynn is.

Lastly, I expected MLB's Best Ever player (Babe Ruth) to be higher on that list.

Gwynn was a RFer who batted third for over half of his ABs (he batted 2nd the second most). He only scored 100 runs twice in his career and batted in over 100 just once. For a top of the order hitter that carried such a high BAVG, he sucked! So yeah, I UNDERRATE him big time. Also, he could not walk (17.9 PA/BB, which is Delmon Young territory).

 

[tomdalton22]

Gwynn was a RFer who batted third for over half of his ABs (he batted 2nd the second most). He only scored 100 runs twice in his career and batted in over 100 just once. For a top of the order hitter that carried such a high BAVG, he sucked! So yeah, I UNDERRATE him big time. Also, he could not walk (17.9 PA/BB, which is Delmon Young territory).

Aren't RBI and runs dependant on the hitters around you?

 

[Sbee]

Aren't RBI and runs dependant on the hitters around you?

They are but the numbers he used showed that gwynn had an empty batting average, similar to a lh polanco

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

 

[tomdalton22]

They are but the numbers he used showed that gwynn had an empty batting average, similar to a lh polanco

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Gwyn .338 BA, .388 OBP, .847 OPS
Polanco .298 BA, .342 OBP .740 OPS

 

[Mitchrapp]

I'm surprised .321 only gets you 48th best. I would have thought top 20 maybe..

 

[Rebbiv]

Aren't RBI and runs dependant on the hitters around you?

Yes and no. If you are a top of the order hitter, even on terrible teams, and you have a decent OBP, then you should be able to score 100 runs.

Additionally, #3 and #4 hitters traditionally have far more RBI chances than a #6, 7, 8 or 9 hitter. So it isn't always relative to the team.

YR RISP RBI

Gwynn
87 - 174 - 39 = 4.46
88 - 146 - 60 = 2.43
89 - 175 - 55 = 3.18
90 - 182 - 59 = 3.08
91 - 151 - 55 = 2.75
TOTAL 828 - 268 = 3.09 (2.69 Career)
828 PA RISP out of 3135 = 26.4%

A. Trammell
83 - 158 - 53 = 2.98
84 - 140 - 49 = 2.86
85 - 168 - 41 = 4.10
86 - 177 - 53 = 3.34
87 - 220 - 74 = 2.97
TOTAL 863 - 270 = 3.20 (3.10 Career)
863 PA RISP out of 3206 = 26.9%


M. Cabrera
08 - 207 - 86 = 2.41
09 - 176 - 67 = 2.63
10 - 202 - 79 = 2.56
11 - 197 - 75 = 2.63
12 - 205 - 89 = 2.30
TOTAL 987 - 396 = 2.49 (2.47 Career)
987 PA RISP out of 3402 = 29.0%

2012 AVG MLB RISP Rate = 3.29

1991 AVG MLB RISP Rate = 3.23

1987 AVG MLB RISP Rate = 3.15


Roughly 65-70% of a players RBI total comes from RISP. Trammell had 100 RBIs in 1987 hitting #4 and yes, that was due to to increase in the amount of times he seen RISP. His rate at producing RBIs was not much different through those years.

If you look at Gwynn's 5-year snapshot and Trammell's, the percentage of Plate Appearances with Runners in Scoring Position isn't much difference. Trammell was basically a #2 hitter, while Gwynn was a #4.

And it isn't just limited to batting order and rates. It is certainly about defensive position. Corner OFer, especially RF, has been traditionally an RBI position.

 

[Rebbiv]

Gwyn .338 BA, .388 OBP, .847 OPS
Polanco .298 BA, .342 OBP .740 OPS

5 years in Detroit

.311 BAVG .355 OBP .418 SLG .773 OPS

Anyways, top 20 BAVG hitters OBP:

1. Cobb .433
2. Hornsby .434
3. Jackson .423
4. O'Doul .413
5. Delahanty .411
6. Speaker .428
7. Hamilton .455
8. Ted Williams .482
9. Brouthers .423
10. Babe Ruth .474
11. Orr .366 (Pre 1900)
12. Heilamann .410
13. Browning .403
14. Keeler .388
15. Terry .393
16. Gehrig .447
17. Sisler .379
18. Burkett .415
18. Gwynn .388
18. Lajoie .380

Empty BAVG is anything that is less than 60-65 points from OBP.


2012 AVG Difference = 64 points
1992 AVG Difference = 66 points
1982 AVG Difference = 63 points
1972 AVG Difference = 67 points
1962 AVG Difference = 68 points
1952 AVG Difference = 70 points
1942 AVG Difference = 70 points
1932 AVG Difference = 61 points
1922 AVG Difference = 61 points


Gwynn's difference is 50 points. Polanco's while with DET was 44 points.

 

[tomdalton22]

5 years in Detroit

.311 BAVG .355 OBP .418 SLG .773 OPS

Anyways, top 20 BAVG hitters OBP:

1. Cobb .433
2. Hornsby .434
3. Jackson .423
4. O'Doul .413
5. Delahanty .411
6. Speaker .428
7. Hamilton .455
8. Ted Williams .482
9. Brouthers .423
10. Babe Ruth .474
11. Orr .366 (Pre 1900)
12. Heilamann .410
13. Browning .403
14. Keeler .388
15. Terry .393
16. Gehrig .447
17. Sisler .379
18. Burkett .415
18. Gwynn .388
18. Lajoie .380

Empty BAVG is anything that is less than 60-65 points from OBP.


2012 AVG Difference = 64 points
1992 AVG Difference = 66 points
1982 AVG Difference = 63 points
1972 AVG Difference = 67 points
1962 AVG Difference = 68 points
1952 AVG Difference = 70 points
1942 AVG Difference = 70 points
1932 AVG Difference = 61 points
1922 AVG Difference = 61 points


Gwynn's difference is 50 points. Polanco's while with DET was 44 points.

I see what you are saying....however, given his OBP and OPS he is still a great hitter....just not as good as most people think.

 

[motownwebguy]

Gwynn was a RFer who batted third for over half of his ABs (he batted 2nd the second most). He only scored 100 runs twice in his career and batted in over 100 just once. For a top of the order hitter that carried such a high BAVG, he sucked! So yeah, I UNDERRATE him big time. Also, he could not walk (17.9 PA/BB, which is Delmon Young territory).

Do you even watch the games... or just do math stats on MLB players?
You do realize Gwynn played his entire career for the San Diego Padres... you do right?

How many times did you actually see Tony play? From the sounds of it, very little. Had Gwynn played for a perennial contender and had some solid players surrounding him in the lineup, he would have been listed even higher on that list.

I think I am done reading your posts. You alarm me with how narrow-minded your baseball knowledge really is, outside of mathematics you post.

OMG!!!!

 

[Thumb]

Childish response.

 

[spockmaster]

5 years in Detroit

.311 BAVG .355 OBP .418 SLG .773 OPS

Anyways, top 20 BAVG hitters OBP:

1. Cobb .433
2. Hornsby .434
3. Jackson .423
4. O'Doul .413
5. Delahanty .411
6. Speaker .428
7. Hamilton .455
8. Ted Williams .482
9. Brouthers .423
10. Babe Ruth .474
11. Orr .366 (Pre 1900)
12. Heilamann .410
13. Browning .403
14. Keeler .388
15. Terry .393
16. Gehrig .447
17. Sisler .379
18. Burkett .415
18. Gwynn .388
18. Lajoie .380

Empty BAVG is anything that is less than 60-65 points from OBP.


2012 AVG Difference = 64 points
1992 AVG Difference = 66 points
1982 AVG Difference = 63 points
1972 AVG Difference = 67 points
1962 AVG Difference = 68 points
1952 AVG Difference = 70 points
1942 AVG Difference = 70 points
1932 AVG Difference = 61 points
1922 AVG Difference = 61 points


Gwynn's difference is 50 points. Polanco's while with DET was 44 points.

Seriously? Ok, so he didn't walk a ton, 7.7% walk rate for his career (which, btw, is still more than either Polanco at 5.4% or Young at 4.1%). He still had really good numbers! Its not like a career OBP of .388 is bad. Neither is his career OPS of .847, wRC+ of 132, wOBA of .370, or career strikeout rate of only 4.2%. And yet you're getting on his case for not having enough runs scored or RBI because he played on largely mediocre/crappy Padres teams for most of his career? And here I thought you hated team-dependent counting stats.

 

[Rebbiv]

Do you even watch the games... or just do math stats on MLB players?
You do realize Gwynn played his entire career for the San Diego Padres... you do right?

How many times did you actually see Tony play? From the sounds of it, very little. Had Gwynn played for a perennial contender and had some solid players surrounding him in the lineup, he would have been listed even higher on that list.

I think I am done reading your posts. You alarm me with how narrow-minded your baseball knowledge really is, outside of mathematics you post.

OMG!!!!

Really?? Regardless of how many games I have watched him play (which are a ton), statistics are a historical accounting of what happened and cannot be fooled. Eyes and memory can be fooled all the time. I am surprised that a person of keen intellect wouldn't know this.

Let's start buy saying that Gwynn played from 1982 to 2001 (20 years).

10 seasons .500 or better

3 seasons making the playoffs

2 seasons of 90 losses or more

1 season of 100 losses or more


Trammell 1997-1996 (also 20 years)

13 seasons .500 or better

2 seasons making the playoffs

2 seasons of 90 losses or more

2 seasons of 100 losses or more


The 80s and 90s Padres were not as bad as what you are making them out to be. It isn't as if they were the KC Royals of the last 20 years. They might not be as successful as the 80s Tigers, but they weren't too far off.


Anyways. You claim was that he was underrated. My contention is that as a corner OFer, he lacked the "counting" stats that most would rate him on. He didn't hit a ton of HRs, he didn't score runs and he didn't drive in runs. Period.


He hit for high average and he made 15 All Star teams, but most "experts" are not going to have in the top 10 for RFers, maybe not even the top 20.

Oh and Spock, walk % can be misleading. Do you want to include intentional walks? They are nice, but shouldn't be used when computing someone's walk rate when discussing plate discipline.

Career

Gwynn 17.1 PA/BB

Polanco 18.9 PA/BB

D. Young 27.3 PA/BB

 

[spockmaster]

I was mainly just trying to make the point that he's not as bad as you seemed to be implying (though he's certainly not as great as many people think he is). walk% is indeed flawed, but he still walks more than either of those 2, significantly more than young in fact.

Theres just a middle ground for gwynn that i think he's really at. not as overrated as some people, not as underrated as others.

 

[Rebbiv]

Seriously? Ok, so he didn't walk a ton, 7.7% walk rate for his career (which, btw, is still more than either Polanco at 5.4% or Young at 4.1%). He still had really good numbers! Its not like a career OBP of .388 is bad. Neither is his career OPS of .847, wRC+ of 132, wOBA of .370, or career strikeout rate of only 4.2%. And yet you're getting on his case for not having enough runs scored or RBI because he played on largely mediocre/crappy Padres teams for most of his career? And here I thought you hated team-dependent counting stats.

Even on bad teams, good player's rates shouldn't be affected. Although they are "counting" stats, if the rate is the same, no problem.

Aside from 2003, Miguel Cabrera was on mediocre Marlin teams and still had 100 RBI and 100 Run seasons.


1984-2001 Gwynn Collective Rankings for RF (4,000 PAs min)

PA = 1

H = 1

R = 1

HR = 40

RBI = 9

OPS = 13

AVG = 1

ISO = 39

wOBA = 13

wRC+ = 6

Again, for most of his 20 years, he doesn't even rank well among his contemporaries in RF for some/most stats.

 

[tomdalton22]

Even on bad teams, good player's rates shouldn't be affected. Although they are "counting" stats, if the rate is the same, no problem.

Aside from 2003, Miguel Cabrera was on mediocre Marlin teams and still had 100 RBI and 100 Run seasons.


1984-2001 Gwynn Collective Rankings for RF (4,000 PAs min)

PA = 1

H = 1

R = 1

HR = 40

RBI = 9

OPS = 13

AVG = 1

ISO = 39

wOBA = 13

wRC+ = 6

Again, for most of his 20 years, he doesn't even rank well among his contemporaries in RF for some/most stats.

Comparing Miggy to him really isn't fair....1/3 of Miggy's 100 runs and RBI are self created by HRs

Wade Boggs is a better comparison. He averaged 67 RBI and only scored more than 100 runs in 7 of his 18 seasons.

 

[Rebbiv]

Comparing Miggy to him really isn't fair....1/3 of Miggy's 100 runs and RBI are self created by HRs

Wade Boggs is a better comparison. He averaged 67 RBI and only scored more than 100 runs in 7 of his 18 seasons.

Regardless of who you use, as long as it is a corner outfielder or corner infielder, then a comparison would be appropriate.


Listen, Gwynn would be an outstanding player if he had played in the middle of the field, but he didn't. He was still a great BAVG hitter and early on, a defensive player.