Come the trade deadline, should Joe pursue a SF?

[durtymrclean]

where do you get the idea that batum would be the 4th option?? if anything, he'd probably be the 2nd option after smoove with jennings apparently deferring more to his teammates this season.

there's a reason batum has been so highly coveted around the league in recent years. batum IS the two-way presence that we need. he instantly balances our offense and vastly improves our defense (smoove>>>moose). stop overvaluing monroe. he's a very talented big with great offensive instincts, but his skillset is a little redundant with smith in the fold. plus, his defensive instincts, especially on PF's, leave very much to be desired. if we could get a 2-way presence like batum and a good 3rd big man like lopez, i'd be all over that deal.

you're delusional if you think melo's an option.

You must not like winning championships very much if you want Batum as your 2nd option with Josh smith as your first. Id rather stick with monroe as option 1b to smith's 1a.

 

[lgolfer]

You must not like winning championships very much if you want Batum as your 2nd option with Josh smith as your first. Id rather stick with monroe as option 1b to smith's 1a.

I feel like Jennings could be our #2 or even Drummond in a year or two could be our #2. Ideally, you'd want Batum to be a #3, in my opinion.

Either way, if we could trade Monroe in the final year of his contract for Batum, I'd do it in a heartbeat. With Drummond, Smith, Batum, KCP, and Jennings, and some decent backups, I think we could be a very solid team.

 

[durtymrclean]

I feel like Jennings could be our #2 or even Drummond in a year or two could be our #2. Ideally, you'd want Batum to be a #3, in my opinion.

Either way, if we could trade Monroe in the final year of his contract for Batum, I'd do it in a heartbeat. With Drummond, Smith, Batum, KCP, and Jennings, and some decent backups, I think we could be a very solid team.

So you want to get older and less talented in order to force either a sub-40% fg shooter or a sub 40% FT shooter to become a 2nd option? Once again, must not be a big fan of championships.

 

[lgolfer]

So you want to get older and less talented in order to force either a sub-40% fg shooter or a sub 40% FT shooter to become a 2nd option? Once again, must not be a big fan of championships.

First off, Batum is 24 years old, Monroe is 23. Not that big of a difference. 2nd, Batum can actually play some defense, Monroe can't.

I can almost guarantee you that Jennings won't shoot under 40% this year. And even if he does, we'll have Drummond and Smith crashing the boards (if Monroe is gone). Drummond will not stay at below 40% from the free throw line. He will improve to at least 50%, if not 60%. And did free throw shooting stop Shaq?

Plus we'd have Batum for 3 years (including this season), compared to this season being the last of Monroe's contract, after which we'd have to overpay for him or let him go.

All in all, it's about getting players who fit together, not only about assembling the most talented roster.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

First off, Batum is 24 years old, Monroe is 23. Not that big of a difference. 2nd, Batum can actually play some defense, Monroe can't.

I can almost guarantee you that Jennings won't shoot under 40% this year. And even if he does, we'll have Drummond and Smith crashing the boards (if Monroe is gone). Drummond will not stay at below 40% from the free throw line. He will improve to at least 50%, if not 60%. And did free throw shooting stop Shaq?

Plus we'd have Batum for 3 years (including this season), compared to this season being the last of Monroe's contract, after which we'd have to overpay for him or let him go.

All in all, it's about getting players who fit together, not only about assembling the most talented roster.

A few things to keep in mind. Firstly, while Batum has the physical gifts to be a quality defender, he's never actually been one over the course of a season. He is consistently out of position, using poor footwork, or just losing track of his man. Portland has tried to make him a stopper, but for his career he's easily rated as a below average defender.

Second, your math doesn't make sense in terms of contract cost. If we traded for Batum THIS year, it would cost us 7 million MORE than it is costing us for Monroe. Further, where Batum would have 3 years signed including this year, Monroe would most certainly be signed for another 4-5 years (which is 5-6 years under contract, since the extension would not count this season). If you look at the three years of Batum vs the next three years of Monroe (assuming a max extension, which is not a given), Batum makes MORE over these three years than Monroe would playing out this season and the next two (32.5 for Monroe, 34 for Batum).

Third, why would a team picking a core player choose 3 years over 5-6 years, which you implied in a wrong fashion. You imply that Batum for 3 years is a bonus because we are going to overpay or lose Monroe. Losing Monroe for nothing is not a real option because of the way UFA is structured. As for overpaid, as I already laid out Monroe is cheaper than Batum the next three years even at the maximum salary. If you want to quibble over Monroe's cost in the later half of his contract, you should at least make note that Batum would be a UFA looking for his last big contract. Batum is paid like a star but plays like a role player. How is he any less overpaid right now than Monroe would be at the max (as good as Al Jefferson, who keeps getting huge contracts).

 

[lgolfer]

A few things to keep in mind. Firstly, while Batum has the physical gifts to be a quality defender, he's never actually been one over the course of a season. He is consistently out of position, using poor footwork, or just losing track of his man. Portland has tried to make him a stopper, but for his career he's easily rated as a below average defender.

Second, your math doesn't make sense in terms of contract cost. If we traded for Batum THIS year, it would cost us 7 million MORE than it is costing us for Monroe. Further, where Batum would have 3 years signed including this year, Monroe would most certainly be signed for another 4-5 years (which is 5-6 years under contract, since the extension would not count this season). If you look at the three years of Batum vs the next three years of Monroe (assuming a max extension, which is not a given), Batum makes MORE over these three years than Monroe would playing out this season and the next two (32.5 for Monroe, 34 for Batum).

Third, why would a team picking a core player choose 3 years over 5-6 years, which you implied in a wrong fashion. You imply that Batum for 3 years is a bonus because we are going to overpay or lose Monroe. Losing Monroe for nothing is not a real option because of the way UFA is structured. As for overpaid, as I already laid out Monroe is cheaper than Batum the next three years even at the maximum salary. If you want to quibble over Monroe's cost in the later half of his contract, you should at least make note that Batum would be a UFA looking for his last big contract. Batum is paid like a star but plays like a role player. How is he any less overpaid right now than Monroe would be at the max (as good as Al Jefferson, who keeps getting huge contracts).

You're correct regarding the amount of the contract. I forgot that Batum was being paid so much in his current contract. Due to that, maybe it wouldn't be the best to do a Batum for Monroe trade straight up. Ultimately though, I'd like to get a better SF, since Josh Smith is a PF, not a SF and I don't think Luigi Datome will be more than a good role player.
But what do you mean "losing Monroe for nothing is not a real option because of the way UFA is structured"? It's not like the NFL where you can get compensation picks, right?

 

[jakebernatyo]

A few things to keep in mind. Firstly, while Batum has the physical gifts to be a quality defender, he's never actually been one over the course of a season. He is consistently out of position, using poor footwork, or just losing track of his man. Portland has tried to make him a stopper, but for his career he's easily rated as a below average defender.

Second, your math doesn't make sense in terms of contract cost. If we traded for Batum THIS year, it would cost us 7 million MORE than it is costing us for Monroe. Further, where Batum would have 3 years signed including this year, Monroe would most certainly be signed for another 4-5 years (which is 5-6 years under contract, since the extension would not count this season). If you look at the three years of Batum vs the next three years of Monroe (assuming a max extension, which is not a given), Batum makes MORE over these three years than Monroe would playing out this season and the next two (32.5 for Monroe, 34 for Batum).

Third, why would a team picking a core player choose 3 years over 5-6 years, which you implied in a wrong fashion. You imply that Batum for 3 years is a bonus because we are going to overpay or lose Monroe. Losing Monroe for nothing is not a real option because of the way UFA is structured. As for overpaid, as I already laid out Monroe is cheaper than Batum the next three years even at the maximum salary. If you want to quibble over Monroe's cost in the later half of his contract, you should at least make note that Batum would be a UFA looking for his last big contract. Batum is paid like a star but plays like a role player. How is he any less overpaid right now than Monroe would be at the max (as good as Al Jefferson, who keeps getting huge contracts).

batum may not be a stopper, but i've never seen a "below average defender" small forward average nearly 3 combined block and steals per game. he is certainly a capable defender, and if he had smith and drummond protecting the paint behind him, he could really utilize his length to cause havoc on defense.

where are you getting the idea that monroe's next contract would be less than batum's current one? batum signed a 4 year/46 million dollar deal in 2012. considering the fact the hibbert got a max deal (4/58) and cousins just signed one (4/62), monroe's in for a HUGE raise that he probably won't deserve, but since he's a big, he'll get overpaid. the problem i have with that is that we already have our frontcourt set. why make the redundant decision of extending monroe instead of moving him while his value is at his highest???

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

You're correct regarding the amount of the contract. I forgot that Batum was being paid so much in his current contract. Due to that, maybe it wouldn't be the best to do a Batum for Monroe trade straight up. Ultimately though, I'd like to get a better SF, since Josh Smith is a PF, not a SF and I don't think Luigi Datome will be more than a good role player.
But what do you mean "losing Monroe for nothing is not a real option because of the way UFA is structured"? It's not like the NFL where you can get compensation picks, right?

I don't entirely agree with your assessment of Josh Smith. Statistically he's actually a better defender at SF (he's very quick on the perimeter, and way too strong near the basket). But offensively you are right in that any positioning that takes him away from the basket torpedoes his effectiveness. He's an imperfect player that would show flaws at either position, but who will be really good either way. I mean, let's be honest, Smith played primarily PF in Atlanta, and it didn't really bring up his efficiency. He's going to be who he is at either position, and the slightly better defense at SF is nice.

As for the idea of losing Monroe for nothing not really being an option, I'm simply referring to contract leverage. If he signs a contract with another team, we can match it and trade him later. If we don't want to bother, we can trade him this season without BYC problems. The only player that I can remember choosing the qualifying offer is Ben Gordon, and that was a pretty unique case. His team knew he wasn't worth the money and apparently so did everyone else except Joe Dumars. Ben didn't take the QC to stick it to Chicago; he took it because no one else was offering him a big contract. Monroe wouldn't have that issue, and we would match anything he is offered (even if just to trade him later).

batum may not be a stopper, but i've never seen a "below average defender" small forward average nearly 3 combined block and steals per game. he is certainly a capable defender, and if he had smith and drummond protecting the paint behind him, he could really utilize his length to cause havoc on defense.

where are you getting the idea that monroe's next contract would be less than batum's current one? batum signed a 4 year/46 million dollar deal in 2012. considering the fact the hibbert got a max deal (4/58) and cousins just signed one (4/62), monroe's in for a HUGE raise that he probably won't deserve, but since he's a big, he'll get overpaid. the problem i have with that is that we already have our frontcourt set. why make the redundant decision of extending monroe instead of moving him while his value is at his highest???

Allen Iverson averaged over 2 steals a game for his career, and nearly 3 a game for multiple years. He was a terrible defender. Your argument is inherently flawed because it presumes steal and blocks are the majority of defensive plays, and they aren't by a long shot. Blocks and steals make up a very small proportion of defensive plays, and Batum fails pretty often at the other stuff.

I didn't say that Monroe's contract would be less than Batum's. In fact, my numbers all presumed that Monroe would be given a max contract with the same numbers as John Wall. What you might be missing is that Monroe will only make 4 million this year no matter when he gets extended. His extension contract doesn't start until the 2014-2015 season. Monroe is less expensive ONLY through the next three seasons (the end of Batum's contract). If he signs a max deal, he'd surely be more expensive after that. But it doesn't really change my point that Batum is more overpaid at 11 million per year than Monroe would be at 14 million per year.

 

[beez]

that's a pretty blank statement.
better at what? batum is a MUCH better perimeter defender, shooter from everywhere, and playmaker. that upgrades our biggest weaknesses. monroe is a very good scoring/passing big with limited range and pretty bad defensive instincts. he kind of magnifies our weaknesses...

can you imagine how good we could be defensively with KCP, batum, smith, and drummond?? we could be STIFLING...
bring in tony mitchell, robin lopez, peyton siva, and singler off the bench, good lord. we could really be the best defensive team in the league from top to bottom.

Great analysis here...Batum is a better perimeter defender, shooter from everywhere and playmaker than Shaq in his prime too. Next you'll tell us how much better Will Bynum handles the rock and defends the perimeter than Monroe.

 

[beez]

Your argument is inherently flawed because it presumes steal and blocks are the majority of defensive plays, and they aren't by a long shot. Blocks and steals make up a very small proportion of defensive plays.

Right..there are plenty of guys who can block shots and steal the rock... Play Hasheem Thabeet 30 minutes and see how many shots he blocks while he defends terribly..bismack Biyombo..etc

 

[jakebernatyo]

it's obvious that this 3 bigs lineup isn't gonna work out in the long run, and i know joe didn't pay smith 14 million a year for nothing, so it's time to move moose and turn the team over the drummond and smith.

i have done a lot of thinking about possible/plausible trades, and this is the best i could come up with:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=lycvrbd

pistons trade: monroe, singler
pistons receive: chandler, ezeli, denver's 2014 1st rounder, additional future pick from denver

nuggets trade: chandler, miller, 2014 1st rounder, additional future draft pick
nuggets receive: greg monroe, kyle singler, 5 million dollar trade exception for miller

dubs trade: ezeli, 5 million dollar trade exception
dubs receive: miller

detroit gets the perimeter player they desperately need in hometown hero wilson chandler, a good backup for drummond in ezeli, and draft picks to continue to rebuild.

denver is able to add the post presence they've been seeking for some time now, get miller's contract off the books, AND free up some immediate cap space. after this trade, they could turn and pull the trigger on the rumored faried-shumpert swap.

goldenstate gets a veteran PG in miller who should be a great fit for the dubs uptempo system as well as quality injury insurance should curry's ankles decide to call it quits.

what do you guys think??

 

[tomdalton22]

it's obvious that this 3 bigs lineup isn't gonna work out in the long run, and i know joe didn't pay smith 14 million a year for nothing, so it's time to move moose and turn the team over the drummond and smith.

i have done a lot of thinking about possible/plausible trades, and this is the best i could come up with:

http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=lycvrbd

pistons trade: monroe, singler
pistons receive: chandler, ezeli, denver's 2014 1st rounder, additional future pick from denver

nuggets trade: chandler, miller, 2014 1st rounder, additional future draft pick
nuggets receive: greg monroe, kyle singler, 5 million dollar trade exception for miller

dubs trade: ezeli, 5 million dollar trade exception
dubs receive: miller

detroit gets the perimeter player they desperately need in hometown hero wilson chandler, a good backup for drummond in ezeli, and draft picks to continue to rebuild.

denver is able to add the post presence they've been seeking for some time now, get miller's contract off the books, AND free up some immediate cap space. after this trade, they could turn and pull the trigger on the rumored faried-shumpert swap.

goldenstate gets a veteran PG in miller who should be a great fit for the dubs uptempo system as well as quality injury insurance should curry's ankles decide to call it quits.

what do you guys think??

No thanks! Chandler isn't even a starting caliber SF.

 

[jakebernatyo]

No thanks! Chandler isn't even a starting caliber SF.

...and you base this on what exactly?

 

[tomdalton22]

...and you base this on what exactly?

past performance. He can be a starter on a team with 2 or 3 good to great players. The Pistons NEED to add good to great players....not average to below average guys like Chandler.

 

[jakebernatyo]

past performance. He can be a starter on a team with 2 or 3 good to great players. The Pistons NEED to add good to great players....not average to below average guys like Chandler.

what are you talking about? drummond is on the brink of greatness. smith is already a stud when used correctly. jennings is finally breaking out too.

we HAVE good players. they just don't fit together. chandler would be the perfect low-turnover, high IQ floor spacer we need on offense and the versatile perimeter defender we need on defense.

i'd honestly be surprised if chandler and monroe aren't mentioned in trade rumors sometime soon.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

Chandler isn't good enough to improve the team more than Monroe. While the picks being thrown in make me think it could be a viable deal, I can't see Joe D giving up ANY current value even for quality future value like that. His job is probably on the line this year, so he's more likely to mortgage future assets for current ones than the other way around.

 

[tomdalton22]

what are you talking about? drummond is on the brink of greatness. smith is already a stud when used correctly. jennings is finally breaking out too.

we HAVE good players. they just don't fit together. chandler would be the perfect low-turnover, high IQ floor spacer we need on offense and the versatile perimeter defender we need on defense.

i'd honestly be surprised if chandler and monroe aren't mentioned in trade rumors sometime soon.

Smith has never been a stud. If he was the Hawks would have wanted to keep him and other teams would have been in the bidding for him. Bottom line....studs get max deals and NOBODY including the Pistons were going down that road for __-SMOOVE!!!

 

[jrange378]

Smith has never been a stud. If he was the Hawks would have wanted to keep him and other teams would have been in the bidding for him. Bottom line....studs get max deals and NOBODY including the Pistons were going down that road for __-SMOOVE!!!

I dont know about that, Smith was a top 25 scorer, and nobody else in the top 25 had the amount of rebounds, blocks or steals as Smith.

There can be dispute about the money he makes, but not the quality of player.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

Smith has never been a stud. If he was the Hawks would have wanted to keep him and other teams would have been in the bidding for him. Bottom line....studs get max deals and NOBODY including the Pistons were going down that road for __-SMOOVE!!!

First of all, Smith did NOT receive a max contract. He was eligible to receive a starting salary of roughly 16.5 million dollars with 4.5% yearly raises. He is making, even with incentives, only 14 million each year of his contract, meaning he neither started at the maximum nor receives yearly raises.

Second, we do not know what teams were pursuing Smith nor for how much money. Houston was long rumored as a potential landing spot, but used all their money on Dwight. It's pretty likely they would have been all in on the next best free agents if Dwight had stayed in LA.

Third, what are you basing the claim that Smith was never a stud on? If you are looking only at scoring efficiency, you would be right. If you are looking at defense, passing from the frontcourt, rebounding, blocking shots, and most any stat that compiles both ends of the court, Smith has been a stud most of his career. He's also been highly durable both in terms of games played and minutes. This is an oft-overlooked statistic that can lead to terrible signings (Amare Stoudemire would be overpaid at any number). Most every major basketball mind last year admitted Smith was a gamble, but ultimately deserved a max contract based on his play.

You can bash the Smith signing all day. Signing Smith to this team, specifically, was a pretty dumb move in what is becoming a long line of dumb moves. But Smith, individually as a player, has always been really good. He's not a superstar, but max contracts artificially limit how much you can pay good players. You don't have to be a superstar to be worth the max, and we didn't even pay him that.

 

[tomdalton22]

First of all, Smith did NOT receive a max contract. He was eligible to receive a starting salary of roughly 16.5 million dollars with 4.5% yearly raises. He is making, even with incentives, only 14 million each year of his contract, meaning he neither started at the maximum nor receives yearly raises.

Second, we do not know what teams were pursuing Smith nor for how much money. Houston was long rumored as a potential landing spot, but used all their money on Dwight. It's pretty likely they would have been all in on the next best free agents if Dwight had stayed in LA.

Third, what are you basing the claim that Smith was never a stud on? If you are looking only at scoring efficiency, you would be right. If you are looking at defense, passing from the frontcourt, rebounding, blocking shots, and most any stat that compiles both ends of the court, Smith has been a stud most of his career. He's also been highly durable both in terms of games played and minutes. This is an oft-overlooked statistic that can lead to terrible signings (Amare Stoudemire would be overpaid at any number). Most every major basketball mind last year admitted Smith was a gamble, but ultimately deserved a max contract based on his play.

You can bash the Smith signing all day. Signing Smith to this team, specifically, was a pretty dumb move in what is becoming a long line of dumb moves. But Smith, individually as a player, has always been really good. He's not a superstar, but max contracts artificially limit how much you can pay good players. You don't have to be a superstar to be worth the max, and we didn't even pay him that.

Right....Smith did NOT recieve a max contract. Stud players get MAX contracts. Teams don't let their STUD players leave. Smith is NOT a stud player.

Another great shooting game by ___-SMOOVE. At this point in the game he is 5-18 and 1-6 from 3. Keep jacking them up SMOOVE...you will get yours!