Frank Ragnow Interview

[detroit1811]

This is a really great interview and some insight. Talked about how under Patricia they were forced to work 12+ hours a day. Said after the day was through with meetings and all the other BS they still had to go watch film and condition their bodies. Made players feel like they didn?t want to do the extra work as they were already exhausted. Said Bevell made a big difference when he took over.

Also talked about Dan Campbell a little. About him being a former player and understanding what players go through, and knowing the right buttons to push. Was a bunch of other stuff in there.

 

[LKP]

Yeah overworked is a thing. It works for Brady but not every player. And the players still looked lost in the defense. Campbell and Glenn both keep noting how confused everybody looked

 

[boogerlovejoy]

The defensive play reminded me of what the offensive line looked like under Lombardi. Guys lost all the time. Constant miscommunications.

In a game by game scenario, its tough to tell if its scheme or player related......but over the course of a couple seasons if the same thing continues to happen again and again.....it's more likely scheme. That was the problem with Patricia.....he is a "my scheme will work" coach. Don't worry that we didn't have the players to execute it. Gotta get better works if you have guys that can do that....can win their one on ones.....on the DL or in the secondary. We didn't. So guess what, it didn't work.

To me, the best coaches are the ones that look at what they have and coach to their strengths. Thats exactly what Glenn and Campbell said they're doing right now. Looking at what they have, and then designing their scheme around it. I'm not saying that will make us top 10.....still gotta have talent too.....but I bet we see more individual plays being made as guys are only being asked to do what they're good at.

 

[LKP]

2020 was young players though too and COVID

AO, Okudah, Harris, Tavai still too young to get it completely. Injuries on Dline galore had guys in and out.

Jones and Ragland can't cover though. Davis hit or miss covering this year. Tavai can't cover. Speed and instinct problem. Collins only solid LB cover guy

Trufant hurt all year. Coleman hurt some too. Flowers a huge injury

Just a disaster at every level, coaching, speed, injuries, experience

They added the Harmon, Collins, Shelton and Flower to help but Flowers hurt too. Still missing the Hightower, McCourty brothers, the Van Noy roles

No speed, no adjustments, and some youth with no vets to help them enough

 

[boogerlovejoy]

2020 was young players though too and COVID

AO, Okudah, Harris, Tavai still too young to get it completely. Injuries on Dline galore had guys in and out.

Jones and Ragland can't cover though. Davis hit or miss covering this year. Tavai can't cover. Speed and instinct problem. Collins only solid LB cover guy

Trufant hurt all year. Coleman hurt some too. Flowers a huge injury

Just a disaster at every level, coaching, speed, injuries, experience

They added the Harmon, Collins, Shelton and Flower to help but Flowers hurt too. Still missing the Hightower, McCourty brothers, the Van Noy roles

No speed, no adjustments, and some youth with no vets to help them enough

That's my point, tons a fun. It's not about all the excuses you make.....it's about getting the most out of the talents your guys have.

1. Davis isn't good, but he's athletic as shit and is effective in blitz situations.....yet we don't use him as a blitzer much.

2. Jones and Tavai SUCK in coverage.....yet who do we have covering Delvin Cook on a big drive in the Minny game.....Jones. He gets burned and the Queens win. No excuse for that. None. Tavai in coverage is a joke. If you want to run a man to man scheme....why the FUCK wouldn't you get coverage LB's?

3. DL can't get pressure. We have one of the lowest pass rush win % in football, yet we don't blitz. Why? Because we can't cover? Then why are we running a man to man scheme if we can't rush the passer, don't blitz effectively or often, and can't cover on the back side? That's more than "COVID" or having young guys. That's bad coaching.

4. Add point 3 to the fact we have guys confused multiple times during a game.....can't get the right number of guys on the field and don't disguise coverages for shit......and it equals a historically bad defense.

But hey.......he called a good play 6 years ago in a big game.....so I'm sure that makes him feel better!

 

[LKP]

Yep lots of things went wrong. Some things he could control and some things he couldn't.

But now we start fresh and have draft capital to build and cap space is coming soon.

Goal will be not historically bad defense, we'll take below average I'm sure

 

[tomdalton22]

That's my point, tons a fun. It's not about all the excuses you make.....it's about getting the most out of the talents your guys have.

1. Davis isn't good, but he's athletic as shit and is effective in blitz situations.....yet we don't use him as a blitzer much.

2. Jones and Tavai SUCK in coverage.....yet who do we have covering Delvin Cook on a big drive in the Minny game.....Jones. He gets burned and the Queens win. No excuse for that. None. Tavai in coverage is a joke. If you want to run a man to man scheme....why the FUCK wouldn't you get coverage LB's?

3. DL can't get pressure. We have one of the lowest pass rush win % in football, yet we don't blitz. Why? Because we can't cover? Then why are we running a man to man scheme if we can't rush the passer, don't blitz effectively or often, and can't cover on the back side? That's more than "COVID" or having young guys. That's bad coaching.

4. Add point 3 to the fact we have guys confused multiple times during a game.....can't get the right number of guys on the field and don't disguise coverages for shit......and it equals a historically bad defense.

But hey.......he called a good play 6 years ago in a big game.....so I'm sure that makes him feel better!

the funny thing is almost everyone knew it was coming...except LKP. He thought last year's team was another one of his 10 win floor, SB contending teams. :lmao:

 

[LKP]

the funny thing is almost everyone knew it was coming...except LKP. He thought last year's team was another one of his 10 win floor, SB contending teams. :lmao:

You cannot reach any conclusions from 2019 going into 2020.

2019 Stafford got hurt for 8 games (0-8) and they didn't have the players the wanted. Refs hurt them in 2 Stafford games so 5-2-1 became 3-4-1. Looked great under Bevell in 2019 too.

2020 they literally hand picks all the players they wanted with Trufant, Okudah, Collins, Harmon, Shelton, Okwara with hopeful progression from some of the younger guys (Tavai, Harris, AO, Walker etc). Added to Oline and Swift. You could see the plan but with injuries and bad coaching and guys not living up to previous bars they set, it fell flat on his face

So don't like act you knew it was going to happen. They made a complete overhaul and that overhaul didn't work out as expected. You basically say anything Lions will do will fail. You and hughes. and that is why you suck and don't get claim you are right when you always say it

 

[tomdalton22]

You cannot reach any conclusions from 2019 going into 2020.

2019 Stafford got hurt for 8 games (0-8) and they didn't have the players the wanted. Refs hurt them in 2 Stafford games so 5-2-1 became 3-4-1. Looked great under Bevell in 2019 too.

2020 they literally hand picks all the players they wanted with Trufant, Okudah, Collins, Harmon, Shelton, Okwara with hopeful progression from some of the younger guys (Tavai, Harris, AO, Walker etc). Added to Oline and Swift. You could see the plan but with injuries and bad coaching and guys not living up to previous bars they set, it fell flat on his face

So don't like act you knew it was going to happen. They made a complete overhaul and that overhaul didn't work out as expected. You basically say anything Lions will do will fail. You and hughes. and that is why you suck and don't get claim you are right when you always say it

actually, that is how it works. If we always predict that they will suck, and they always suck, we get to claim we were right. If I claim that they will be good this year, and they are bad, I will be wrong. That is actually how predictions work.

Kind of like being a weatherman. If I say it is going to snow but it ends up raining, I can't pull an LKP and say "well, it was too warm. If it were colder we would have gotten a snow storm. This rainfall is a true snowstorm"

 

[LKP]

actually, that is how it works. If we always predict that they will suck, and they always suck, we get to claim we were right. If I claim that they will be good this year, and they are bad, I will be wrong. That is actually how predictions work.

Kind of like being a weatherman. If I say it is going to snow but it ends up raining, I can't pull an LKP and say "well, it was too warm. If it were colder we would have gotten a snow storm. This rainfall is a true snowstorm"

Nope. Have to have reasons for it besides just saying they will suck. Also you have to observe what happens and why. Like injuries. And players past performance compared to what they show on the field in a particular year. Sometimes they match, sometimes they regress, sometimes they progress. Coaches can do the same. Also coaches can coach correctly but a player just doesn't get it is the option too, like a younger player just figuring out how to play.

I can say it will rain every day then eventually be right a good number of days too.

Like you are technically correct in the thing happened

It's like a math problem. You got to show your work. Cant' just write 7 and it happens to be 7 then you get full credit. Doesn't work like that

Your "right" is meaningless is the point

 

[tomdalton22]

Nope. Have to have reasons for it besides just saying they will suck. Also you have to observe what happens and why. Like injuries. And players past performance compared to what they show on the field in a particular year. Sometimes they match, sometimes they regress, sometimes they progress. Coaches can do the same. Also coaches can coach correctly but a player just doesn't get it is the option too, like a younger player just figuring out how to play.

I can say it will rain every day then eventually be right a good number of days too.

Like you are technically correct in the thing happened

It's like a math problem. You got to show your work. Cant' just write 7 and it happens to be 7 then you get full credit. Doesn't work like that

Your "right" is meaningless is the point

I said that if I say they are going to suck every year, and then they suck, I was right. If I say they are going to suck and they don't, I am wrong. There hasn't been a single year that I said they were going to suck and they were actually good.

You on the other hand, almost always say they are going to be good and then they suck. Therefore, you are almost always wrong.

As far as your comparison to a math problem, that's stupid. We are talking about predicting something that we think is going to happen based on what we see before the season. My weather comparison was spot on, your math comparison was stupid.

 

[mhughes0021]

Bro..dont forget that injury to Hand. If Hand would have played that was atleast 12 wins.

Hand Actual 3 sacks
Hand Forecast 561 sacks and HOF

 

[detroit1811]

I said that if I say they are going to suck every year, and then they suck, I was right. If I say they are going to suck and they don't, I am wrong. There hasn't been a single year that I said they were going to suck and they were actually good.

You on the other hand, almost always say they are going to be good and then they suck. Therefore, you are almost always wrong.

As far as your comparison to a math problem, that's stupid. We are talking about predicting something that we think is going to happen based on what we see before the season. My weather comparison was spot on, your math comparison was stupid.

I do get what he is saying though. It is one thing to say this team will suck or be good, but you should at least have some reasoning why. Last year would've been not fixing the pass rush going into the season. I think there were reasonable expectations that the secondary would be pretty good. The LB'ers were expected to be average with Davis and Tavai hopefully taking that step forward and Collins being a playmaker. We were still soft up the middle, and I honestly expected to struggle quite a bit against the run. The offense was expected to carry the team, and they played pretty good, but I think Golladay's injury cannot be overstated. Even if he stay healthy though this is still a 6 win team with that defense.

I don't think even Patrcia's biggest detractors truly realized how bad he was screwing this team. You could immediately tell the difference once Bevell was in there, and that was very telling.

I honestly expected to compete for a wildcard spot and win 7-9 games. Our division did not look overly strong, and Rodgers hadn't been "Rodgers" in a few years.

Sad thing is even if we stayed relatively healthy this was still probably only a 6-8 win team. If we had the exact same team as last year, they stayed relatively healthy, but had the coaching staff we had now I think we would've made the wild card.

Maybe that is an overstatement on my part, I just think our defensive staff was that horrible last year and Patricia was killing this team from the inside out.

 

[LKP]

I said that if I say they are going to suck every year, and then they suck, I was right. If I say they are going to suck and they don't, I am wrong. There hasn't been a single year that I said they were going to suck and they were actually good.

You on the other hand, almost always say they are going to be good and then they suck. Therefore, you are almost always wrong.

As far as your comparison to a math problem, that's stupid. We are talking about predicting something that we think is going to happen based on what we see before the season. My weather comparison was spot on, your math comparison was stupid.

Yeah but you are just saying its going to rain every day with no rhyme or reason. The Lions live in Seattle but still you have no support for what you said. You have to say why to fully be "Right"

And things change. Based on what we saw, things should have happened one way. But injuries or unexpected regression or not even matching previous play is a thing that can change things dramatically. Desmond Trufant perfect example, solid CB even in 2019. Shit the bed in 2020 due to new scheme, injuries etc.

Vaitai. Showed potential and played tackle. Lions move him to guard and he has a bad foot injury. Unexpected

And nobody cares if you are right because you weren't right knowing why the season failed. You just guessed and said its because the Lions always suck.

But now its a new regime. So even more guess work and looking at players on other rosters trying to correlate that to the Lions. Seeing what draft picks do etc

 

[LKP]

I do get what he is saying though. It is one thing to say this team will suck or be good, but you should at least have some reasoning why. Last year would've been not fixing the pass rush going into the season. I think there were reasonable expectations that the secondary would be pretty good. The LB'ers were expected to be average with Davis and Tavai hopefully taking that step forward and Collins being a playmaker. We were still soft up the middle, and I honestly expected to struggle quite a bit against the run. The offense was expected to carry the team, and they played pretty good, but I think Golladay's injury cannot be overstated. Even if he stay healthy though this is still a 6 win team with that defense.

I don't think even Patrcia's biggest detractors truly realized how bad he was screwing this team. You could immediately tell the difference once Bevell was in there, and that was very telling.

I honestly expected to compete for a wildcard spot and win 7-9 games. Our division did not look overly strong, and Rodgers hadn't been "Rodgers" in a few years.

Sad thing is even if we stayed relatively healthy this was still probably only a 6-8 win team. If we had the exact same team as last year, they stayed relatively healthy, but had the coaching staff we had now I think we would've made the wild card.

Maybe that is an overstatement on my part, I just think our defensive staff was that horrible last year and Patricia was killing this team from the inside out.

I am glad somebody gets it

People didn't like Patricia but it was pretty unexpected how bad he was in 2020. Like 2018 Patricia got us a better defense. 2019 is hard year to judge with Stafford hurt. Injuries killed some on field production too

There are so many factors in everything football. You can't simply say they are good or suck and then just disregard what happens.

And some of the Lions will surely suck crew, were still predicting 8-10 wins too at times for 2020. They are just changing their story now

 

[LKP]

Pass rush
Flowers injury is huge there
They unexpectedly blitzed Davis less and used Jones/Ragland at JACK some
Nick Williams had better past performances
Okwara was good and had 10 sacks
Griffen was a nice add, missed a couple on COVID
Shelton not a rusher but showed things there in 2019. Also injury 2020 for 4 games
J Okwara/Bryant injury so they can't develop

Lots of things happened that were unexpected or shouldn't have

And agree if we had current coaching staff with 2020 team, defense would be much better. Maybe average even

Rodgers returned to Rodgers, Vikings have a good offense but tanked on defense.

Vikings another perfect example showing how injuries and experience matter. Young secondary, Hunter injury, Pierce opt out, Barr injury, Kendricks injury and their defense went to shit. Zimmer didn't forget how to coach

And then you have the little things tacking on losses. Swift drop Week 1 and 3 CB injuries allowing Bears to come back. Second half easier schedule but Lions dealing with major injuries. So annoying

 

[mhughes0021]

Pass rush
Flowers injury is huge there
They unexpectedly blitzed Davis less and used Jones/Ragland at JACK some
Nick Williams had better past performances
Okwara was good and had 10 sacks
Griffen was a nice add, missed a couple on COVID
Shelton not a rusher but showed things there in 2019. Also injury 2020 for 4 games
J Okwara/Bryant injury so they can't develop

Lots of things happened that were unexpected or shouldn't have

And agree if we had current coaching staff with 2020 team, defense would be much better. Maybe average even

Rodgers returned to Rodgers, Vikings have a good offense but tanked on defense.

Vikings another perfect example showing how injuries and experience matter. Young secondary, Hunter injury, Pierce opt out, Barr injury, Kendricks injury and their defense went to shit. Zimmer didn't forget how to coach

And then you have the little things tacking on losses. Swift drop Week 1 and 3 CB injuries allowing Bears to come back. Second half easier schedule but Lions dealing with major injuries. So annoying

More excuses dude....really?

youll see this year...this defense will not be average. They can be happy all they want. Happy doesnt make you good.

I saw nothing different after bevell took over....same shitty defense.

 

[LKP]

More excuses dude....really?

youll see this year...this defense will not be average. They can be happy all they want. Happy doesnt make you good.

I saw nothing different after bevell took over....same shitty defense.

Injuries and coaching worse than anyone could imagine. Undlin clueless DC. We also played some pretty good offenses under Bevell. Bucs, Titans, Packers thats tough even for a good defense, let alone a lost terrible one chocked full of injuries

Defense could still be really bad in 2021, new scheme and need to add players that fit better and have NFL speed. Lot of work to do

Can Okudah, AO, Walker be good.. unknown but they have a chance. Walker and AO have actually proven some things in the league. Maybe better coaching helps them. Walker should be FS but Glenn probably playing split safeties. Not a true FS, SS, but could have cover 2, 2 deep. Saints played alot of quarters coverage (all deep) too

Can Flowers, J Okwara, Hand provide a pass rush. If they add more yes they will help and could be consistent pressure. But we all agree they need more and better interior pressure. Stud DT would go a long way again plus a run stuffer

 

[detroit1811]

Pass rush
Flowers injury is huge there
They unexpectedly blitzed Davis less and used Jones/Ragland at JACK some
Nick Williams had better past performances
Okwara was good and had 10 sacks
Griffen was a nice add, missed a couple on COVID
Shelton not a rusher but showed things there in 2019. Also injury 2020 for 4 games
J Okwara/Bryant injury so they can't develop

Lots of things happened that were unexpected or shouldn't have

And agree if we had current coaching staff with 2020 team, defense would be much better. Maybe average even

Rodgers returned to Rodgers, Vikings have a good offense but tanked on defense.

Vikings another perfect example showing how injuries and experience matter. Young secondary, Hunter injury, Pierce opt out, Barr injury, Kendricks injury and their defense went to shit. Zimmer didn't forget how to coach

And then you have the little things tacking on losses. Swift drop Week 1 and 3 CB injuries allowing Bears to come back. Second half easier schedule but Lions dealing with major injuries. So annoying

I do agree that Flowers injury hurt us, but Flowers isn't an impact rush guy, IMO. He is good, don't get me wrong, but he isn't nowhere near elite (think Bosa Brothers). I don't think he is even a step below elite (think Shaq Barrett, Frank Clark). He falls into the next group with the Melvin Ingram's of the world. A borderline pro bowler, but not an All-Pro. Honestly Okwara's emergence offset whatever we lost from Flowers.

Nick Williams though was a terrible signing. He has been a rotational guy at best his entire career. He had a decent pass rushing year before he hit free agency, but we should not have expected him to be anything, but a nickel rusher. Shelton has never shown more then being a space eater and he was just average at that. Was pretty much the same thing for us when he played. Going into the season that D-Line just didn't have enough NFL talent. Bob Quinn either grossly over-estimated the talent we had on the D-Line, or grossly over-estimated Patricia's coaching ability.

 

[detroit1811]

More excuses dude....really?

youll see this year...this defense will not be average. They can be happy all they want. Happy doesnt make you good.

I saw nothing different after bevell took over....same shitty defense.

Bevell isn't a defensive guy, but I thought they played with a lot more energy. Still can't fix everything at the end of season when the system is in place. Especially when you are missing a ton of pieces and aren't that good even with those pieces. You could notice guys going harder out there and putting in better effort though. At least I thought you could.