Kieler going to play LT

[Sbee]

MD said that Beadle needs a reset. not getting it done at LT, missing Conklin big time.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

No reset at QB?

 

[Sbee]

No reset at QB?

According to MD, TOC was not to blame for the loss at IU, he played well enough to win.

60% completion 263 yards, 3 td, 0 int, had a few drops and big plays wiped off the board with holding calls.

 

[gotime909]

So we're replacing a guy that can't get it done at LT with a guy that just got replaced because he couldn't get it done at center

 

[Sbee]

So we're replacing a guy that can't get it done at LT with a guy that just got replaced because he couldn't get it done at center

not ideal at all, Kieler was functional at RT last year, so maybe he can fill in admirably. too bad about Finley, wish he'd get healthy

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

According to MD, TOC was not to blame for the loss at IU, he played well enough to win.

60% completion 263 yards, 3 td, 0 int, had a few drops and big plays wiped off the board with holding calls.

I think that's the problem. If you look at purely his stats you'd say "wow this guy is pretty good" but in reality he is not a good QB! Cook had an awful completition percentage, and it was because of the throws he made (NFL throws). Mr O'Connor can't hit a WR 15 yards past the line of scrimmage if his life depended on it.

 

[Sbee]

I think that's the problem. If you look at purely his stats you'd say "wow this guy is pretty good" but in reality he is not a good QB! Cook had an awful completition percentage, and it was because of the throws he made (NFL throws). Mr O'Connor can't hit a WR 15 yards past the line of scrimmage if his life depended on it.

Nobody is saying that TOC is Connor Cook, arguably the best QB in MSU history. I'm simply saying that TOC is the best quarterback on the roster, there's a big difference.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

Nobody is saying that TOC is Connor Cook, arguably the best QB in MSU history. I'm simply saying that TOC is the best quarterback on the roster, there's a big difference.

I was just making the point that a QB can't strictly be evaluated from a stats perspective.

 

[gotime909]

Nobody is saying that TOC is Connor Cook, arguably the best QB in MSU history. I'm simply saying that TOC is the best quarterback on the roster, there's a big difference.

If what we have coming up isn't at least as good as O'Conner right now then we are FUCKED. I don't care what his numbers were in that Indiana game. He stared down WR's all game again and was HORRIBLE on 3rd down. I'm not gonna get excited because a coupe times he hit his first read for a big play.

 

[Spartanmack]

I think that's the problem. If you look at purely his stats you'd say "wow this guy is pretty good" but in reality he is not a good QB! Cook had an awful completition percentage, and it was because of the throws he made (NFL throws). Mr O'Connor can't hit a WR 15 yards past the line of scrimmage if his life depended on it.

plus he took 2 sacks in OT, is a big reason our 3rd down conversion ratio sucks and why we could only muster 14 points against IU until they coughed up the tying TD (which was done all on the ground), plus he doesn't appear to be much of a leader. but he's mediocre at just everything else and stuck around for 5 years so we owe it to him.

 

[Spartanmack]

If what we have coming up isn't at least as good as O'Conner right now then we are FUCKED. I don't care what his numbers were in that Indiana game. He stared down WR's all game again and was HORRIBLE on 3rd down. I'm not gonna get excited because a coupe times he hit his first read for a big play.

we're starting to sound like broken records with this one. But seriously, how much better is he, really? Is he 3 wins better? I have a hard time believing that. And even if he is, then get ready for this same thing next year with yet another inexperienced QB - in a year where we play at uofm and osu. TOC's leash has run out - what can he learn that will benefit us at this point? Nothing. Any progress he makes will be at the expense of next year's QB and will be totally wasted. TOTALLY WASTED.

But I think it's worse than that - I don't think he can progress significantly - he's in his 5th year for crap's sake. But a guy like Lewerke or even Deweaver has to have a much higher ceiling. I say, bite the bullet, maybe take the extra loss (although I doubt even that is certain) and build something that can pay dividends.

 

[Sbee]

plus he took 2 sacks in OT, is a big reason our 3rd down conversion ratio sucks and why we could only muster 14 points against IU until they coughed up the tying TD (which was done all on the ground), plus he doesn't appear to be much of a leader. but he's mediocre at just everything else and stuck around for 5 years so we owe it to him.

First sack was his fault, it was a run/pass option that is 80% run, Lyles was run blocking down the field, there were maybe 1 or 2 routes to go to there. The second sack was due to two receivers running the wrong routes, Beadle got beat again and the receivers weren't where they were supposed to be. There's a big problem with inexperience on offense, it's easy to look at the QB and say he's the problem when a RB doesn't pick up a blitz and the QB has to get rid of the ball early or if a receiver runs a route of 12 yards instead of 17, we're seeing a lot of that, along with some bad throws.

Again, he played winning football on Saturday night, he was far from the reason we lost. He was a main reason we lost against wisconsin, but not last week, but like most fans, everyone wants someones head on a platter when we lose games. TOC is playing because he gives us the best chance to win games. If you want to go full on rebuild mode and say screw this year, then you need to sit TOC, Bullough, K Williams, Darien Hicks, Kieler, Shelton, and others.

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

Sbee...you just really wrote "he played winning football Saturday" I'm not reading anything past that.

 

[Sbee]

Sbee...you just really wrote "he played winning football Saturday" I'm not reading anything past that.

That's cool, don't read it if it doesn't fit your narrative. Look at the numbers for TOC, the drops, penalties, defensive attrition due to injuries and say with a straight face that we lost due to qb play. Could he have played better, of course, if he completed 65% vs 60% we win I'm sure, but qb play was actually a positive on Saturday.

What's crazy is that people aren't beating the drum for us to take the redshirt off of out true freshman kicker.

 

[Spartanmack]

First sack was his fault, it was a run/pass option that is 80% run, Lyles was run blocking down the field, there were maybe 1 or 2 routes to go to there. The second sack was due to two receivers running the wrong routes, Beadle got beat again and the receivers weren't where they were supposed to be. There's a big problem with inexperience on offense, it's easy to look at the QB and say he's the problem when a RB doesn't pick up a blitz and the QB has to get rid of the ball early or if a receiver runs a route of 12 yards instead of 17, we're seeing a lot of that, along with some bad throws.

Again, he played winning football on Saturday night, he was far from the reason we lost. He was a main reason we lost against wisconsin, but not last week, but like most fans, everyone wants someones head on a platter when we lose games. TOC is playing because he gives us the best chance to win games. If you want to go full on rebuild mode and say screw this year, then you need to sit TOC, Bullough, K Williams, Darien Hicks, Kieler, Shelton, and others.

nobody is saying he was the only reason we lost - you're just being dishonest saying that. He was a big part of it though and a failure to recognize that is just naive - it's also a coaching blunder to add to the other obvious coaching blunders by the staff so far this year. TOC did NOT play winning football - that's ridiculous. If changes are being made elsewhere because of poor play, the QB position should be looked at too because he's playing just as bad as most and worse than a lot of players.

Also, I don't absolve him of the second sack because he didn't even try to salvage the play - when he saw the busted routes, his first move should have been to get outside the tackles and if he didn't find anyone, chuck it out of bounds. Those were critical yards at that point and he gave them up.

And I don't want TOC's head on a platter - i want the coaches to make what I believe is a rational decision. You have not basis for saying change means giving up on the season and the future matters - it matters more now than it did before. By the time you're willing to change, we will be giving up and by then it could be too late. When MD says things like "TOC did enough to win that game" it makes me question his judgement in this case.

 

[Sbee]

nobody is saying he was the only reason we lost - you're just being dishonest saying that. He was a big part of it though and a failure to recognize that is just naive - it's also a coaching blunder to add to the other obvious coaching blunders by the staff so far this year. TOC did NOT play winning football - that's ridiculous. If changes are being made elsewhere because of poor play, the QB position should be looked at too because he's playing just as bad as most and worse than a lot of players.

Also, I don't absolve him of the second sack because he didn't even try to salvage the play - when he saw the busted routes, his first move should have been to get outside the tackles and if he didn't find anyone, chuck it out of bounds. Those were critical yards at that point and he gave them up.

And I don't want TOC's head on a platter - i want the coaches to make what I believe is a rational decision. You have not basis for saying change means giving up on the season and the future matters - it matters more now than it did before. By the time you're willing to change, we will be giving up and by then it could be too late. When MD says things like "TOC did enough to win that game" it makes me question his judgement in this case.

Discussion of a QB change dominates the discussion on this board when there are many other more valid reasons that contributed more to the loss. Obviously it's the nature of the QB position, when a team starts losing, the backup QB becomes the most popular person on the roster.

As for the 3rd play of OT, it's very easy to say that he should have gotten rid of the ball, tucked it and ran, or do something different. You combine receivers running the wrong routes as the LT gets beat you're not going to get a good outcome. We have the benefit of sitting on our couches and re-hashing it, but in a split second, that combo spells disaster.

You're saying that you want the coaches to make a rational decision, which is what I believe they are doing. I've said I'd be open to a change if Lewerke pushed TOC in spring and fall camp, but he didn't, the competition was over quickly. If Lewerke has somehow taken off in the last few weeks and now understands the offense as good or better than TOC, that's fine, I just highly doubt that's the case.

 

[gotime909]

Saying that O'Conner had a good game is like saying a hitter in baseball had a good game because he went 2-4 and got picked off first twice. I mean his stats looked good in the box score right?

 

[LuciousGameWinner]

I think QB change dominates the discussion because we are seeing the changes happen at the Oline, WR, and RB. Only position that we have not seen a change at is QB

 

[Sbee]

I think QB change dominates the discussion because we are seeing the changes happen at the Oline, WR, and RB. Only position that we have not seen a change at is QB

There has been one change on the OL and that happened earlier this week, the QB discussion was dominating conversation well before that.

 

[Sbee]

Saying that O'Conner had a good game is like saying a hitter in baseball had a good game because he went 2-4 and got picked off first twice. I mean his stats looked good in the box score right?

Well, if you figure in the drops and plays called back because of holding, I'd say the inverse is true. If Corley holds on to that pass he's likely gone considering he was hit in stride but even if he slowed down slightly and got tackled it's 1st and 10 from the 40 vs Hartbarger punting from his own end zone and a tired defense coming back on the field. Madaris also had a key drop, a solid run was called back due to the hold (I understand that the player who was held could have made the tackle), there were other completions and gains wiped out. Yes performance is more than the box score.