Pacers 123 Pistons 115 Final

[biggunsbob]

Preview

https://www.espn.com/nba/game/_/gameId/401468184

Detroit 1-1

Indiana 0-2

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

Hopefully because it's so early in the season, the back to back won't mean as much. Though, getting absolutely shellacked the night before is gonna feel some sort of way. It'll be interesting if we see adjustments from the coach, or if the guys just feel more motivated to defend after seeing the results of their effort in NY.

 

[tomdalton22]

I'd like to see them lose 10 in a row and get Casey fired

 

[tinselwolverine]

I'd like to see them lose 10 in a row and get Casey fired

That?s not very nice.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

That?s not very nice.

But also pretty reasonable. It's really hard this game to separate an improved defense from the Pacers being terrible. Is Casey even good? I don't know. He's strikes me a lot like Mark Jackson. He knows to he NBA, and he will hold guys accountable. It's fair to say he can install the basics. But when you want to be something more, when you want someone to push potential into reality, you need somebody else. Casey is probably fine until the team actually needs to win something (and to be honest, this is the draft to tank for), but then we should move on.

 

[tinselwolverine]

But also pretty reasonable. It's really hard this game to separate an improved defense from the Pacers being terrible. Is Casey even good? I don't know. He's strikes me a lot like Mark Jackson. He knows to he NBA, and he will hold guys accountable. It's fair to say he can install the basics. But when you want to be something more, when you want someone to push potential into reality, you need somebody else. Casey is probably fine until the team actually needs to win something (and to be honest, this is the draft to tank for), but then we should move on.

I was kidding.

I have no idea who Casey is and I don?t give a shit if he (assuming Casey is a he) gets fired or not.

I also have no idea who Mark Jackson is, although I think I?ve heard the name.

Isn?t he a former NBA player who became a mayor of somewhere and he beat up some punk who assaulted him?

Anyway, assuming Casey is with the Pistons, a loss in this game won?t be 10 losses in a row.

I don?t know how many losses in a row this would be for the Pacers.

 

[biggunsbob]

Piston just are not very good on the defense end.

 

[biggunsbob]

As of right now I?m on the new head coach train. I?m just not sold that Casey is the right guy. I really hope he is. But the results haven?t been very good. Team plays zero defense. Getting out rebounded by 8 or 9. Indiana has 15 block shots to the Pistons 3. Wtf ? Assists and steals are even. This team Just has really bad habits on defense. Don?t really see much help defense. Idk we just are missing something. I hope it?s just youth. Maybe they need to get used to each other.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

As of right now I?m on the new head coach train. I?m just not sold Casey is the right guy. I really hope he is. But the results haven?t been very good. Team plays zero defense.

Not disagreeing here, the team's defense is pretty abominable. But I also want this team to lose a LOT of games. I'd hate for the lottery odds to be thrown off by a temporary boost from getting a new coach. Let's just play (lose) it out, and get a real coach when we have a real team (a high pick in 2023).

 

[tinselwolverine]

Not disagreeing here, the team's defense is pretty abominable. But I also want this team to lose a LOT of games. I'd hate for the lottery odds to be thrown off by a temporary boost from getting a new coach. Let's just play (lose) it out, and get a real coach when we have a real team (a high pick in 2023).

The NBA is the only sport in which fans of a team view success in the number of games their team can successfully lose.

?Oh, boy?our team lost that game in spectacular manner! I hope the next game will be an even more catastrophic loss! I hope all the games will be! It will only make our team more successful!?

The Pistons have made the post season only twice in the last 13 years in a sport that makes that much failure really, really difficult to achieve.

Is the strategy of losing to improve working? I mean, with all that failure, there should have been some decent draft picks over that time.

JFC, three games into an 82 game season, for the love of God.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

The NBA is the only sport in which fans of a team view success in the number of games their team can successfully lose.

?Oh, boy?our team lost that game in spectacular manner! I hope the next game will be an even more catastrophic loss! I hope all the games will be! It will only make our team more successful!?

The Pistons have made the post season only twice in the last 13 years in a sport that makes that much failure really, really difficult to achieve.

Is the strategy of losing to improve working? I mean, with all that failure, there should have been some decent draft picks over that time.

JFC, three games into an 82 game season, for the love of God.

Has all the losing in the last decade paid off? No. For one, the team has only picked in the top 5 (there most lucrative picks) twice, each of the last two years. The team refused to actually rebuild, because the front office was painfully stupid. A team incapable of winning anything, and yet designed to squeeze every last available win out of the season, is the worst kind of failure. The NBA is designed for three different outcomes: good teams with the players to complete who trade draft picks for marginally increased odds at a championship, bad teams who trade anyone good for draft picks to increase the chance they one day land talented players, and mediocre teams who aren't bad enough for top picks and who aren't good enough to compete. Sacramento is the poster child for the third group, but Detroit had been making a solid push for that title.

The reality is that only 5 players on either team are on the court. A single player can thusly have an outsized impact on the outcome of any game. Imagine an NFL game where everybody is the quarterback. Having a star player is worth more than a dozen role players. That's why Blake took us to the playoffs, and why the team has been an absolute joke otherwise.

And the 2023 draft is one of the most highly regarded since 2003. We remember 2003. We know how one decision can kill championship hopes for 20 years. I want Cade, and Ivey, and Duren to be good. I do. But I'm also a realist. I hope they lose 70 games and land Wembanyama, because Cleveland was a better team from 2003-2023 than the Pistons were.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Has all the losing in the last decade paid off? No. For one, the team has only picked in the top 5 (there most lucrative picks) twice, each of the last two years. The team refused to actually rebuild, because the front office was painfully stupid. A team incapable of winning anything, and yet designed to squeeze every last available win out of the season, is the worst kind of failure. The NBA is designed for three different outcomes: good teams with the players to complete who trade draft picks for marginally increased odds at a championship, bad teams who trade anyone good for draft picks to increase the chance they one day land talented players, and mediocre teams who aren't bad enough for top picks and who aren't good enough to compete. Sacramento is the poster child for the third group, but Detroit had been making a solid push for that title.

The reality is that only 5 players on either team are on the court. A single player can thusly have an outsized impact on the outcome of any game. Imagine an NFL game where everybody is the quarterback. Having a star player is worth more than a dozen role players. That's why Blake took us to the playoffs, and why the team has been an absolute joke otherwise.

And the 2023 draft is one of the most highly regarded since 2003. We remember 2003. We know how one decision can kill championship hopes for 20 years. I want Cade, and Ivey, and Duren to be good. I do. But I'm also a realist. I hope they lose 70 games and land Wembanyama, because Cleveland was a better team from 2003-2023 than the Pistons were.

70 losses out of 82? Wow. They would have to practically sit down on the court the entire game to achieve that much failure, and it would still be a struggle, because there are certainly enough other teams so desperate to land Wembanyama that they would actually literally also sit on the court with the Pistons the entire game.

In a 0-0 tie, with no player having actually possessed the ball for the entire game, how is the outcome of the game decided?

I don?t know.

Would they all be fined? Probably.

Maybe they could all kneel instead, and claim it was a BLM protest.

A BLM protest, every game, all game long, the entire season.

That would make more sense.

Whatever it takes to land Wembanyama.

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

70 losses out of 82? Wow. They would have to practically sit down on the court the entire game to achieve that much failure, and it would still be a struggle, because there are certainly enough other teams so desperate to land Wembanyama that they would actually literally also sit on the court with the Pistons the entire game.

In a 0-0 tie, with no player having actually possessed the ball for the entire game, how is the outcome of the game decided?

I don?t know.

Would they all be fined? Probably.

Maybe they could all kneel instead, and claim it was a BLM protest.

A BLM protest, every game, all game long, the entire season.

That would make more sense.

Whatever it takes to land Wembanyama.

In fairness, 70 losses is probably outside the realm of possibility. But you get my point. Wenbamyama is arguably the greatest prospect since LeBron. Scoot would go first in most drafts. Hell, even the next group of wings would immediately supplant anybody we are starting (Cade and Ivey could even be moved to the 2 and 3).

I just want this team to be good again in my lifetime. And I don't mean barely scraping in to get swept in the playoffs good, I mean legitimately contending. Any year not moving in that direction in some significant way (Cade could still breakout, Ivey could fulfill the limitless potential of his athleticism), is better off landing another high pick.

 

[tinselwolverine]

In fairness, 70 losses is probably outside the realm of possibility. But you get my point. Wenbamyama is arguably the greatest prospect since LeBron. Scoot would go first in most drafts. Hell, even the next group of wings would immediately supplant anybody we are starting (Cade and Ivey could even be moved to the 2 and 3).

I just want this team to be good again in my lifetime. And I don't mean barely scraping in to get swept in the playoffs good, I mean legitimately contending. Any year not moving in that direction in some significant way (Cade could still breakout, Ivey could fulfill the limitless potential of his athleticism), is better off landing another high pick.

No. I don?t see your point at all.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zouIqKN8rZA

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

No. I don?t see your point at all.

Are we arguing "pointed tanking"? I'm not saying the Pistons shouldn't be trying to win right now. They are just really bad, so trying isn't enough. And as a fan (as opposed to being a player on the team), I can be happy for losses when I know REAL wins (the kind that get you into the playoffs or you get in the playoffs) aren't available.

The team couldn't defend the Pacers last night. Now, the coaching staff should use that to teach and develop the team overall. They should be looking for ways to defend better. But as a fan, I can understand how that is a strategically positive loss. Not only because it gets us closer to the bottom of the standings, but because Indiana may well be one of the team's fighting for the bottom by the end of the year.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Are we arguing "pointed tanking"? I'm not saying the Pistons shouldn't be trying to win right now. They are just really bad, so trying isn't enough. And as a fan (as opposed to being a player on the team), I can be happy for losses when I know REAL wins (the kind that get you into the playoffs or you get in the playoffs) aren't available.

The team couldn't defend the Pacers last night. Now, the coaching staff should use that to teach and develop the team overall. They should be looking for ways to defend better. But as a fan, I can understand how that is a strategically positive loss. Not only because it gets us closer to the bottom of the standings, but because Indiana may well be one of the team's fighting for the bottom by the end of the year.

What I?m saying is the French dude has zero minutes of NBA experience, and even a team loses every game, because of the lottery they?re not guaranteed to get the guy still.

I?m saying we?ve heard this ?generational talent? and ?best prospect since LeBron James? song and dance before.

Sometimes the prognosticators are right - I don?t know how old you are but I remember when a kid at Lansing Everett was being called a generational talent and it turned he was. I posted the video of Steven A. Smith because we just saw the ?generational talent? movie with Zion Williamson - so far not so much.

The greatest current - maybe ever - example of a generational talent is Tom Brady. How many games did the Pats have to intentionally blow to move up to #199 to get him?

Also, I?m not sure tanking shouldn?t be a violation of the RICO Act - a team colluding to lose - isn?t that just point shaving by more than one person?

 

[everyoneneedsasmil]

What I?m saying is the French dude has zero minutes of NBA experience, and even a team loses every game, because of the lottery they?re not guaranteed to get the guy still.

I?m saying we?ve heard this ?generational talent? and ?best prospect since LeBron James? song and dance before.

Sometimes the prognosticators are right - I don?t know how old you are but I remember when a kid at Lansing Everett was being called a generational talent and it turned he was. I posted the video of Steven A. Smith because we just saw the ?generational talent? movie with Zion Williamson - so far not so much.

The greatest current - maybe ever - example of a generational talent is Tom Brady. How many games did the Pats have to intentionally blow to move up to #199 to get him?

Also, I?m not sure tanking shouldn?t be a violation of the RICO Act - a team colluding to lose - isn?t that just point shaving by more than one person?

I get not trusting the draft. As a Piston fan especially. But I think we just disagree on a few points.

First, Zion is actually awesome. Yeah, he can't seem to stay healthy, but he's unstoppable on the court. I personally don't know how to weigh that with pre-draft expectations. He IS the guy we thought he was, and I don't know if we should have expected these injuries. If Cade was playing at Zion's level, we would have no chance of a top pick.

Second, picking first is no guarantee, but the math still works out in our favor. Look at the expected value of NBA draft picks: The top picks just work out way more often. And the drop off is FAST. The difference between a top 3 pick and top 10 pick is the difference between a star and a decent bench guy. Yeah, there are always gems who outplay their draft slot. But nobody actually knows who those guys are going to be.

Third, Tom Brady (and the NFL in general) is not a good analogy for the NBA. The sport and draft are just too different. Tom wasn't an elite prospect when he was drafted, and that was accurate. His skills weren't all the way there before he got to NE, and he worked his ass off to get better. The number of even second round players to become all time NBA greats is tiny.

Fourth, players don't tank. Coaches don't tank. But owners and front offices, they do. They'll hold guys out for health, rest, or whatever. But the guys in the floor are trying to win. And the coaches are trying their best to put together the best team they can. Is that skirting the line? Absolutely. But it meets the rule minimums.

 

[biggunsbob]

I can see your points but when it?s a lottery system getting the top pick is really a crap shoot.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I get not trusting the draft. As a Piston fan especially. But I think we just disagree on a few points.

First, Zion is actually awesome. Yeah, he can't seem to stay healthy, but he's unstoppable on the court. I personally don't know how to weigh that with pre-draft expectations. He IS the guy we thought he was, and I don't know if we should have expected these injuries. If Cade was playing at Zion's level, we would have no chance of a top pick.

Second, picking first is no guarantee, but the math still works out in our favor. Look at the expected value of NBA draft picks: The top picks just work out way more often. And the drop off is FAST. The difference between a top 3 pick and top 10 pick is the difference between a star and a decent bench guy. Yeah, there are always gems who outplay their draft slot. But nobody actually knows who those guys are going to be.

Third, Tom Brady (and the NFL in general) is not a good analogy for the NBA. The sport and draft are just too different. Tom wasn't an elite prospect when he was drafted, and that was accurate. His skills weren't all the way there before he got to NE, and he worked his ass off to get better. The number of even second round players to become all time NBA greats is tiny.

Fourth, players don't tank. Coaches don't tank. But owners and front offices, they do. They'll hold guys out for health, rest, or whatever. But the guys in the floor are trying to win. And the coaches are trying their best to put together the best team they can. Is that skirting the line? Absolutely. But it meets the rule minimums.

Okay.

In #18 Bob is saying succinctly what I?m saying.

The draft is a crap shoot.

Playing to lose to gamble for a flimsy draft advantage is just wrong in so many, what? Contexts? Logical strategies? Moral codes? Ethical codes, not to mention laws? Dimensions? Metaverses?

This is why I hate the NBA - or one of the reasons.

The primary reason I hate the NBA is LeBron James.

Not that he?s not the greatest human being athlete there ever has been, because he probably is.

It?s because he?s a hypocrite.