You're the GM, make one realistic move...

[boogerlovejoy]

Again, I'll repeat, I greatly favor the idea of Hamels and Victorino over Beckett. It is a bigger improvement for a similar cost, IMHO. Yet, you want to fixate on the less desirable option I posted and have brought nothing new to the discussion. I'll entertain myself and reply again though.

Beckett's performance has everything to do with his attitude. He clearly doesn't care too much right now. That has a lot to do with the manager and team. Valentine is clashing with lots of guys on that team and their record and attitudes and clearly affected. Beckett basically gave the team a big middle finger the other day when he said his side was too sore to pitch, but went golfing and made no apologies for it other than to say it was one of his very few days off during the year. Baseball is a very mental game. Beckett has loads of ability, but his head isn't in it right now. He needs a change of scenery and he'll bounce back.

How do you not see that adding to the rotation is an instant upgrade and is no different than adding elsewhere? It's the Moneyball theory of adding wins. If the WAR is the same, you can add an average corner OF, an average 2B, and an average BP guy and spend $16mil in the process and get the same result as adding a $16mil pitcher or a $16mil hitter. It makes no difference where the wins come from in the end. An improvement is an improvement is an improvement. I've asked multiple times to multiple posters and not one suggestion has been posed for a corner OF, DH, BP or 2B that can add similar impact.

Mr. I has said time and time again that he's got no set salary cap, he loves big names, and he wants to win now. He's shown that in moves he's okayed, yet you sit here and talk about not trading prospects and emptying the cupboard. He couldn't give two shits about what happens to Turner and Castellanos a couple seasons from now. For all he knows, he could be dead by then. He's said as much in interviews lately. He sees the end is near even though he still feels good. He's realistic about it. If he thinks a move or two will put them over the top, he'll write the check and take the shot.

You still don't seem to understand the concept of trading for players and trading the replaced players away after that. Let's say, for shits and giggles, that you trade Turner and Castellanos straight up for Beckett. Now, you can turn around and trade one of Scherzer, Porcello or Smyly away for a 2B, BP help, or anything else you think you may need. Your rotation is set through 2014 with Beckett, and you focus on your next hot prospects to draft, build and hype. That's how it works when you are a spender trying to win. When you are a loser that's rebuilding, you trade away the pricey talent, collect Turner and Castellanos and hope to compete in 2015. When you try to do both simultaneously, you typically end up as a mediocre team.

There is still no way we add a DH unless that guy can play another position, is unsigned beyond this year, or can get easily flipped or cut when Victor is back. The best thing we can do if we want to add offense is find a 2B or corner OF (but who???) and make the DH spot a rotation of Prince, Miggy, and Alex to keep them healthy, or occasionally to another slumping starter to get them going.

Alright, I guess I have to be the one to set you straight.

You're an idiot.

You continue to make the point that Beckett is ineffective this year because of his attitude.... the team underacheiving and his manager.
Please give me a reason WHY coming to Detroit, a team who is also underacheiving, and a manager with a similar style....would be a good move for him? JB didn't want Francona fired because he got to do whatever the fuck he wanted. What do you think Leyland would do to him???

What you are failing to realize is that the problem with Beckett lies with Beckett. Giving up Turner and Castellanos???? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??? Turner and Castellanos TOGETHER will not cost $18M over the next 5 years. Not even close. Also, I doubt the Tigers would have any interest in that deal. Oakland asked for those two players last year for Gio Gonzalez.....a MUCH better pitcher than Beckett.....and the Tigers said no thanks.

That trade would set the Tigers backward....not move them forward. It solves NO current problems and creates a lack of top level depth in the minors. Shit, that move would be stupid in any video game, let alone real life.

Lets recap....

1. Beckett would be a cancer in a locker room dominated by latin players and a manager who wouldn't take his shit.
2. Beckett sucks and would be a downgrade in the Detroit rotation.
3. Financially, that move is fucking stupid.
4. The Tigers would say no to that deal.
5. You're a ruh tard.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Why would the Phillies trade even Hamels?

They're expecting to compete for the WS this year.

They are in last place, six games out already, and Hamels isn't signed for next season and they don't believe they can resign him either. They've already been talking with the Blue Jays about a deal for Hamels and Victorino from what I've read.

 

[mjsb2]

They are in last place, six games out already, and Hamels isn't signed for next season and they don't believe they can resign him either. They've already been talking with the Blue Jays about a deal for Hamels and Victorino from what I've read.

Unless they're 10+ out at the all-star game they won't be selling.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Alright, I guess I have to be the one to set you straight.

You're an idiot.

You continue to make the point that Beckett is ineffective this year because of his attitude.... the team underacheiving and his manager.
Please give me a reason WHY coming to Detroit, a team who is also underacheiving, and a manager with a similar style....would be a good move for him? JB didn't want Francona fired because he got to do whatever the fuck he wanted. What do you think Leyland would do to him???

What you are failing to realize is that the problem with Beckett lies with Beckett. Giving up Turner and Castellanos???? ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??? Turner and Castellanos TOGETHER will not cost $18M over the next 5 years. Not even close. Also, I doubt the Tigers would have any interest in that deal. Oakland asked for those two players last year for Gio Gonzalez.....a MUCH better pitcher than Beckett.....and the Tigers said no thanks.

That trade would set the Tigers backward....not move them forward. It solves NO current problems and creates a lack of top level depth in the minors. Shit, that move would be stupid in any video game, let alone real life.

Lets recap....

1. Beckett would be a cancer in a locker room dominated by latin players and a manager who wouldn't take his shit.
2. Beckett sucks and would be a downgrade in the Detroit rotation.
3. Financially, that move is fucking stupid.
4. The Tigers would say no to that deal.
5. You're a ruh tard.

Thanks for "setting me straight" with your opinion backed by zero factual support. Calling me an idiot and retard is always a nice touch too. What are you, twelve? LOL!

I don't disagree that Beckett's issues are primarily/exclusively based around his attitude and work ethic. That's why I think a change of scenery could do wonders for him. Sometimes all you need is a different routine, different teammates, a different set of coaches, etc. If you don't want to be somewhere, it's tough to get geared up to do your best day in and day out. Baseball is a highly mental game and it is a grind. That said, it isn't a guarantee that a change of scenery would change him back to the old Josh Beckett... there's a good chance that he's just lazy, apathetic, or has something else going on upstairs that isn't fixable. I don't think he's hurt or has diminished skills though. He was very good last season and I don't see any physical reason he couldn't be that good again this season.

I get so sick of hearing about these prized prospects all the time. Have you ever watched either of these guys play? If so, are they the next big thing? Are they can't miss players? Remember how great Miller and Maybin were supposed to be? How about Humberto Sanchez? Nate Cornejo? Justin Thompson? The list of these "can't miss" prospects that never did a damn thing goes on and on and on. When you are going for a World Series and you have the chance to trade unknown commodities for known commodities, you gotta do it.

 

[mjsb2]

The only way you ever trade two top 30 prospects is for a young stud, like what the Tigers did to get Cabrera.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Unless they're 10+ out at the all-star game they won't be selling.

Just telling you that's the buzz around the Phillies right now. I'm not pulling this out of thin air.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/05/blue-jays-inquired-on-hamels-victorino.html

 

[kingofdetroit57]

The only way you ever trade two top 30 prospects is for a young stud, like what the Tigers did to get Cabrera.

I think Turner was #26 and Castellanos is #65 in the latest Baseball America rankings I saw.

I haven't seen a ton of Jacob Turner, and I know he's really young still, but he hasn't impressed me yet. I'm afraid he's the next in a long line of pitchers that Dave Dombrowski has done a masterful job of overhyping. I hope I'm wrong though. If not, I hope we can trade him while the value is still really high.

Castellanos has been a stud so far, but here's the problem... he plays the same position as Miguel Cabrera. Unless he becomes a left fielder for us, he's very tradeable.

 

[mjsb2]

I think Turner was #26 and Castellanos is #65 in the latest Baseball America rankings I saw.

I haven't seen a ton of Jacob Turner, and I know he's really young still, but he hasn't impressed me yet. I'm afraid he's the next in a long line of pitchers that Dave Dombrowski has done a masterful job of overhyping. I hope I'm wrong though. If not, I hope we can trade him while the value is still really high.

Castellanos has been a stud so far, but here's the problem... he plays the same position as Miguel Cabrera. Unless he becomes a left fielder for us, he's very tradeable.

With the way Castellanos has been hitting he's jumped significantly.

If Turner stays healthy, both will likely be top 30 when they release their midseason rankings.

And you can move Castellanos, if he can hit you find a way to play him, you don't trade him because he's blocked.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I think Turner was #26 and Castellanos is #65 in the latest Baseball America rankings I saw.

I haven't seen a ton of Jacob Turner, and I know he's really young still, but he hasn't impressed me yet. I'm afraid he's the next in a long line of pitchers that Dave Dombrowski has done a masterful job of overhyping. I hope I'm wrong though. If not, I hope we can trade him while the value is still really high.

Castellanos has been a stud so far, but here's the problem... he plays the same position as Miguel Cabrera. Unless he becomes a left fielder for us, he's very tradeable.

Might be trade-able but you don't just trade him to trade him. "Taking offers for Castellanos, we can't use him so we'll take less".

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Just some clarification on this statement...are you saying that when a team builds to win now, is simultaneously building its future down the road, that they end up as mediocre? That if you're good now you go for it, and if you're not you trade away your valuable assets to build for the future, that there is no happy medium of going for it now, while also building for the future?

Not exactly. I'm basically saying that you are either going for it or you are rebuilding. When you try to do both, it usually doesn't work out to well.

If you are going for it, you usually do it at the expense of your farm team. First, it's because you are trading away top prospects. Second, it's because when you get successful, you tend to pick lower and lower in the draft and the young talent drops that way as well. You can only do that for so long until your players get old, they leave in free agency, etc. At that point, you typically start rebuilding in hopes to make another run a few years down the line.

There are very few teams that have been able to rebuild on the fly and sustain success for extended periods of time.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

With the way Castellanos has been hitting he's jumped significantly.

If Turner stays healthy, both will likely be top 30 when they release their midseason rankings.

And you can move Castellanos, if he can hit you find a way to play him, you don't trade him because he's blocked.

I agree with you, and with Mitch. I'm not saying you trade either for the hell of it or that you do it for Beckett. I only used them as an example in one post to make a point.

I've said multiple times now that Hamels and Victorino makes WAY more sense right now than Beckett does. For whatever reason, nobody wants to read or understand that, and they want to talk incessantly about Beckett.

I think our biggest need is a 2B and/or corner OF, but again, I don't see many good options out there for either right now. I do see at least a couple top of the rotation pitchers that could be had right now though. That's why I brought those two up initially.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

Thanks for "setting me straight" with your opinion backed by zero factual support. Calling me an idiot and retard is always a nice touch too. What are you, twelve? LOL!

I don't disagree that Beckett's issues are primarily/exclusively based around his attitude and work ethic. That's why I think a change of scenery could do wonders for him. Sometimes all you need is a different routine, different teammates, a different set of coaches, etc. If you don't want to be somewhere, it's tough to get geared up to do your best day in and day out. Baseball is a highly mental game and it is a grind. That said, it isn't a guarantee that a change of scenery would change him back to the old Josh Beckett... there's a good chance that he's just lazy, apathetic, or has something else going on upstairs that isn't fixable. I don't think he's hurt or has diminished skills though. He was very good last season and I don't see any physical reason he couldn't be that good again this season.

I get so sick of hearing about these prized prospects all the time. Have you ever watched either of these guys play? If so, are they the next big thing? Are they can't miss players? Remember how great Miller and Maybin were supposed to be? How about Humberto Sanchez? Nate Cornejo? Justin Thompson? The list of these "can't miss" prospects that never did a damn thing goes on and on and on. When you are going for a World Series and you have the chance to trade unknown commodities for known commodities, you gotta do it.

Oh, Im sorry. I forgot you factual support is "sometimes a change of scenery would do him wonders".

Thats iron clad then. You got me. SIGN HIM UP!!!!

As far as you being tired of the prospect talk. Stop whining Sally. Guess what....sometimes these prospects pan out. Sometimes a prized prospect like Justin Verlander becomes......well....Justin Fucking Verlander. In 2005 the Tigers tried to follow your keen fullproof plan and offered the Marlins (of all teams) PROSPECTS Justin Verlander AND Curtis Granderson for Dontrelle Willis.

Willis was a BEAST in '05 (22-10, 2.63 ERA) and Verlander was in the process of getting LIT UP in his two starts that year as a PROSPECT. Who would you rather have now???

You have no support to back you. Beckett has never been anything more than a good pitcher. Had one very good year. Has a career ERA of almost 4 and will be 32 in two days. He might have a few good years left. He might spiral straight down the shitter now. I don't know. I do know that trying to fix your ball clubs shortcomings at the plate and defensively in the corner outfield positions will not be fixed by adding an aging, arrogant ass clown for your two best prospects.

There....there's some facts.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Oh, Im sorry. I forgot you factual support is "sometimes a change of scenery would do him wonders".

Thats iron clad then. You got me. SIGN HIM UP!!!!

As far as you being tired of the prospect talk. Stop whining Sally. Guess what....sometimes these prospects pan out. Sometimes a prized prospect like Justin Verlander becomes......well....Justin Fucking Verlander. In 2005 the Tigers tried to follow your keen fullproof plan and offered the Marlins (of all teams) PROSPECTS Justin Verlander AND Curtis Granderson for Dontrelle Willis.

Willis was a BEAST in '05 (22-10, 2.63 ERA) and Verlander was in the process of getting LIT UP in his two starts that year as a PROSPECT. Who would you rather have now???

You have no support to back you. Beckett has never been anything more than a good pitcher. Had one very good year. Has a career ERA of almost 4 and will be 32 in two days. He might have a few good years left. He might spiral straight down the shitter now. I don't know. I do know that trying to fix your ball clubs shortcomings at the plate and defensively in the corner outfield positions will not be fixed by adding an aging, arrogant ass clown for your two best prospects.

There....there's some facts.

WTF are you talking about? Can you not read? I said right in the post you quoted that there's a good chance that a change of scenery wouldn't do a damn thing for Beckett. When did I say it was an iron clad solution?

For every top prospect you can name that did pan out, I'd bet there are a dozen or more that can be named that didn't. I'll play the odds and trust the scouts on who gets traded and who doesn't.

You should learn to read before you start typing some ridiculous response.

 

[boogerlovejoy]

WTF are you talking about? Can you not read? I said right in the post you quoted that there's a good chance that a change of scenery wouldn't do a damn thing for Beckett. When did I say it was an iron clad solution?

For every top prospect you can name that did pan out, I'd bet there are a dozen or more that can be named that didn't. I'll play the odds and trust the scouts on who gets traded and who doesn't.

You should learn to read before you start typing some ridiculous response.

Keep backtracking Betty.

 

[mjsb2]

Not exactly. I'm basically saying that you are either going for it or you are rebuilding. When you try to do both, it usually doesn't work out to well.

If you are going for it, you usually do it at the expense of your farm team. First, it's because you are trading away top prospects. Second, it's because when you get successful, you tend to pick lower and lower in the draft and the young talent drops that way as well. You can only do that for so long until your players get old, they leave in free agency, etc. At that point, you typically start rebuilding in hopes to make another run a few years down the line.

There are very few teams that have been able to rebuild on the fly and sustain success for extended periods of time.

Not sure I agree, how many players have the Rangers traded from their farm system?

They've been to back to back WS, are the best team in the AL again, and still have a top 5 farm system.

They're going for it now, but certainly not at the expense of their farm.

The Rays are going for it now, they're built to win now, but still have a great farm.

The Tigers don't need to add anymore aces or superstar players, all they really need is one or two more solid player, which won't costs one of their top prospects.

They can build for the future with players like Smyly, Turner, Castellanos, and Jackson while still going for it now, because they aren't far off now, and really need minor improvements to take the step to the Rangers level.

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Keep backtracking Betty.

Backtracking, huh?

Here is my original statement to you...

"I don't disagree that Beckett's issues are primarily/exclusively based around his attitude and work ethic. That's why I think a change of scenery could do wonders for him. Sometimes all you need is a different routine, different teammates, a different set of coaches, etc. If you don't want to be somewhere, it's tough to get geared up to do your best day in and day out. Baseball is a highly mental game and it is a grind. That said, it isn't a guarantee that a change of scenery would change him back to the old Josh Beckett... there's a good chance that he's just lazy, apathetic, or has something else going on upstairs that isn't fixable. I don't think he's hurt or has diminished skills though. He was very good last season and I don't see any physical reason he couldn't be that good again this season."

Did you see any iron clad guarantee there about a change of scenery being an absolute?

 

[kingofdetroit57]

Not sure I agree, how many players have the Rangers traded from their farm system?

They've been to back to back WS, are the best team in the AL again, and still have a top 5 farm system.

They're going for it now, but certainly not at the expense of their farm.

The Rays are going for it now, they're built to win now, but still have a great farm.

The Tigers don't need to add anymore aces or superstar players, all they really need is one or two more solid player, which won't costs one of their top prospects.

They can build for the future with players like Smyly, Turner, Castellanos, and Jackson while still going for it now, because they aren't far off now, and really need minor improvements to take the step to the Rangers level.

The Rangers are in their window of winning right now. They had a pretty loaded roster in '05-'07, but stunk and started rebuilding. They already had a good core for years to come when they drafted Kinsler and Blalock, and traded for Young. They traded Volquez and Herrera to the Reds for Hamilton, and Teixeira and Mahay for Salty, Andrus, Feliz, Harrison and Jones in '07. They flipped Salty for a couple more prospects a year or two ago after he had the yips. They were competing and going for it from '05-'07, then did a pretty quick rebuild from '07-'08 and were competing again '09 to present.

The Rangers are a very good organization under Nolan Ryan, but they will be hurting if they miss out on Hamilton this offseason.

 

[theTutor]

Let's see...realistic?

Drew S, Jacob T., Nick C. and AndyD

for Cano (only if he'll sign)

 

[boogerlovejoy]

Backtracking, huh?

Here is my original statement to you...

"I don't disagree that Beckett's issues are primarily/exclusively based around his attitude and work ethic. That's why I think a change of scenery could do wonders for him. Sometimes all you need is a different routine, different teammates, a different set of coaches, etc. If you don't want to be somewhere, it's tough to get geared up to do your best day in and day out. Baseball is a highly mental game and it is a grind. That said, it isn't a guarantee that a change of scenery would change him back to the old Josh Beckett... there's a good chance that he's just lazy, apathetic, or has something else going on upstairs that isn't fixable. I don't think he's hurt or has diminished skills though. He was very good last season and I don't see any physical reason he couldn't be that good again this season."

Did you see any iron clad guarantee there about a change of scenery being an absolute?

"If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything".

Way to stand behind your OP.

Beckett is having a shit season so far, seems to be unhappy and apathetic in Boston, and needs a change of scenery. They could stand to shake things up and shed some of that huge payroll. Beckett is a perfect trade candidate. He's signed through 2014 at $15.75mil/yr, so he'd likely cost you at least two big prospects. I'd gladly make that deal, even if it was Turner and Castellanos.

If the chances aren't more than "there is a good chance he won't" (your last post) be any good why the fuck would you give up Turner and Castellanos for that???


You went from...."Beckett is the PERFECT trade candidate" to "there's a good chance that he's just lazy, apathetic, or has something else going on upstairs that isn't fixable" in 6 pages.

THAT makes you a backtracking ruh tard!!!

 

[kingofdetroit57]

"If you stand for nothing, you'll fall for anything".

Way to stand behind your OP.

Beckett is having a shit season so far, seems to be unhappy and apathetic in Boston, and needs a change of scenery. They could stand to shake things up and shed some of that huge payroll. Beckett is a perfect trade candidate. He's signed through 2014 at $15.75mil/yr, so he'd likely cost you at least two big prospects. I'd gladly make that deal, even if it was Turner and Castellanos.

If the chances aren't more than "there is a good chance he won't" (your last post) be any good why the fuck would you give up Turner and Castellanos for that???


You went from...."Beckett is the PERFECT trade candidate" to "there's a good chance that he's just lazy, apathetic, or has something else going on upstairs that isn't fixable" in 6 pages.

THAT makes you a backtracking ruh tard!!!

Beckett is a perfect trade candidate. He's healthy, in his prime years, has had lots of past success, seems only to have an attitude problem related to his current surroundings, and has a fairly large salary on a team with a huge payroll that is stinking it up. How is that any less true now than when I said it the first time? How is that backtracking?

As far as how he'd do elsewhere, I *THINK* he'd benefit greatly from a change of scenery, but as I said, that's no guarantee that it would be a cure all. There is risk in everything. I'm just more inclined to think it's easier to fix a newly developed attitude problem than you'll admit.

In regards to trading Turner and Castellanos (two prospects who while highly regarded haven't yet done a damn thing in this league, and likely won't for at least a couple more years) for 3yrs of Beckett (known commodity) while we've also got JV, Miggy, and Fielder locked up and VMart returning next year and are making a run towards a World Series, I'd absolutely take that risk that the change of scenery could get him back to his 2005/2007/2009/2011 form.

That's no guarantee that he'd be 2005/2007/2009/2011 Josh Beckett. Hell, he could continue to be shitty like he's been so far this year. I'd still take the risk and hope that he was the guy he's been numerous times in the past and hope he's the piece that puts us over the top.