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Tigers sign SP Mike Pelfry and release him 3/30/2017

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"...which is to say, every year a player ages, they are 2% more likely to make a trip to the DL. The risk of injury is quite substantial in a player’s late 30s–almost 50%."

So first, clearly, very clearly, the fact that Miguel Cabrera is 30 vs 32 offers a not very significant increase on the risk of injury and a DL trip, a 4% increase even over 4 years that's only an 8% increase. Also that 50% number is out of context, in case you haven't noticed out of context statistics disgust me. Such reasoning is the tool of hobgoblins. But, it does represent a significant increase in rate of injury. Essentially, a player in their late thirties is twice as likely to be injured as a player in their early twenties.
Another thing that might be interesting about the notions of injuries and aging, does a player going on the DL mean they are more likely to go on the DL later, or is it more of a statistical sense that all players average X amount of days or weeks on the DL and those who have been on the DL tend to be on the DL less later. Of course, not all situations of the same and so I would be extremely dubious all of any sort of statistical analysis of that but it would be worth thinking about.

Next, I was thinking of the downward trajectory of the talent on the team, the talent that is signed contractually to them and the more or less core roster. The point about talent leaving the team in relation of a downward trajectory, it seems to me, is a different matter entirely. That it seems to me is more about management's inability to compensate for those losses, rather than any representation of the teams contracted talent. However, only an idiot would argue that the Tigers haven't lost talent since 2014 in terms of starting pitching. I mean a playoff rotation of Verlander, price, Scherzer, and Sanchez( should have been starting even if it was on limited pitch count) , is certainly better than anything the Tigers are going to have any time soon.
But, last year, before the sell off, and this coming year I think they have a better offense than they've had in years.
 
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I wasn't speaking for you, you weren't even here when we signed him.
I was using is a figure of speech not necessarily giving you a hard time for speaking for me. My point was that a lot of people were like what? He's too old for 10 million dollars and 2 years.
 
"...which is to say, every year a player ages, they are 2% more likely to make a trip to the DL. The risk of injury is quite substantial in a player?s late 30s?almost 50%."

So first, clearly, very clearly, the fact that Miguel Cabrera is 30 vs 32 offers a not very significant increase on the risk of injury and a DL trip, a 4% increase even over 4 years that's only an 8% increase. Also that 50% number is out of context, in case you haven't noticed out of context statistics disgust me. Such reasoning is the tool of hobgoblins. But, it does represent a significant increase in rate of injury. Essentially, a player in their late thirties is twice as likely to be injured as a player in their early twenties.
Another thing that might be interesting about the notions of injuries and aging, does a player going on the DL mean they are more likely to go on the DL later, or is it more of a statistical sense that all players average X amount of days or weeks on the DL and those who have been on the DL tend to be on the DL less later. Of course, not all situations of the same and so I would be extremely dubious all of any sort of statistical analysis of that but it would be worth thinking about.

Next, I was thinking of the downward trajectory of the talent on the team, the talent that is signed contractually to them and the more or less core roster. The point about talent leaving the team in relation of a downward trajectory, it seems to me, is a different matter entirely. That it seems to me is more about management's inability to compensate for those losses, rather than any representation of the teams contracted talent. However, only an idiot would argue that the Tigers haven't lost talent since 2014 in terms of starting pitching. I mean a playoff rotation of Verlander, price, Scherzer, and Sanchez( should have been starting even if it was on limited pitch count) , is certainly better than anything the Tigers are going to have any time soon.
But, last year, before the sell off, and this coming year I think they have a better offense than they've had in years.


That is subjective in nature and not something that can be objectively supported. It is purely conjecture on your part, as with most of what you post.

Without factoring regression due to age

McCann/Avila > McCann/Saltamacchia
Cabrera = Cabrera
Kinsler = Kinsler
Iglesias = Iglesias
Castellanos = Castellanos
Cespedes = Upton
Gose/Davis > Gose/Maybin
J.D. Martinez = J.D. Martinez
V. Martinez = V. Martinez

2015 Bench > 2016 Bench

Verlander = Verlander
Sanchez = Sanchez
D. Price = Zimmermann
Norris/Greene/Boyd = Norris/Greene/Boyd
A. Simon > Pelfrey

2016 Bull Pen > 2015 Bull Pen


From May 16th of last year to the end of the year, DET was 51-73 .411 WPCT and was one of the worst offensive teams in the AL during that time. After the trade deadline (Price, Cespedes and Soria), the Tigers went 24-34 .414 WPCT, which statistically is the same. So losing Price, Cespedes and Soria did not effect their play. They tied with LAA with the least amount of runs after 31 July and that was with Castellanos supposedly having a great 2nd half.

With age, comes injuries. I don't care what sport. NBA, NHL, NFL or MLB. Once past 30, or even 32, the regression and injuries are significant. There are countless studies that back this claim, I post one, and you immediately dispute it without cause. There is no debating with someone closed minded as you.
 
I was using is a figure of speech not necessarily giving you a hard time for speaking for me. My point was that a lot of people were like what? He's too old for 10 million dollars and 2 years.



No way.

If you say things like that people get all pissy that you're just being negative, and you never, ever, question the moves almighty David Dombrowski, Al Avila, or Mike Illitch or else you just aren't a true Tiger fan.

People here bitched and BITCHED when a select few of us (and I mean a few) came out against the Fister trade. Even now there are a few who would turn to stone rather than admit we were right.

I realize most of this has nothing to do with you, but someone vented here the other day about how "negative" he felt the board had become, and this is basically me venting at all the people who want to try to blow smoke and rainbows up everyone's asses. The Tigers have regressed. Anyone who denies this is in denial. It's a result of Mr. I and DD rolling the dice and taking a big swing for the fences, but coming up short. It's not the end of the world, but it is a natural cycle all teams go through, and need to go through as well, and all the evidence you need to believe that can be found by looking at Kansas City and Houston. The Tigers will be good again, but I don't expect us to compete for the central division in 2016, and that's not be being negative or a hater, that's me being a realist.
 
If a 25 year old has a 25% risk of being injured, and 2% per year, at 37 Victor Martinez has a 49% chance of being injured in 2016.

Age during the 2016 season

V. Martinez 37 (49%)
Aviles 35 (45%)
Kinsler 34 (43%)
Cabrera 33 (41%)

Romine 31 (37%)
Saltamacchia 31 (37%)
Upton 29 (33%)
Maybin 29 (33%)
J.D. Martinez 29 (33%)

Iglesias 26 (27%)
Gose 26 (27%)
McCann 26 (27%)
Castellanos 24 (23%)


K-Rod 34 (43%)
Lowe 33 (41%)
Verlander 33 (41%)

Sanchez 32 (39%)
Pelfrey 32 (39%)
Zimmermann 30 (35%)
A. Wilson 30 (35%)
J. Wilson 29 (33%)
Hardy 29 (33%)


Now, it isn't just that they get injured, but spends time on the DL. There are times when a team does not put a player on the DL but he sits for a week to 10 days.

Also to add to the discussion, is the fact the payroll is now $35 Mil more than at the end of 2015. $35 Mil bought us what improvement?
 
No way.

If you say things like that people get all pissy that you're just being negative, and you never, ever, question the moves almighty David Dombrowski, Al Avila, or Mike Illitch or else you just aren't a true Tiger fan.

People here bitched and BITCHED when a select few of us (and I mean a few) came out against the Fister trade. Even now there are a few who would turn to stone rather than admit we were right.

I realize most of this has nothing to do with you, but someone vented here the other day about how "negative" he felt the board had become, and this is basically me venting at all the people who want to try to blow smoke and rainbows up everyone's asses. The Tigers have regressed. Anyone who denies this is in denial. It's a result of Mr. I and DD rolling the dice and taking a big swing for the fences, but coming up short. It's not the end of the world, but it is a natural cycle all teams go through, and need to go through as well, and all the evidence you need to believe that can be found by looking at Kansas City and Houston. The Tigers will be good again, but I don't expect us to compete for the central division in 2016, and that's not be being negative or a hater, that's me being a realist.

It's not a matter of expecting the board to be overly optimistic but the constant whining is rather annoying. I don't like the pelfrey deal nor did I like the Nathan signing nor the Fister trade but always spinning every move to the negative is what I find grating.

Hell I can recall many on here talking about Kinsler being a DOWNGRADE from Infante and I argued otherwise. Look at that. Look at the minors talent derived from the overpriced acquisitions. There are plusses to be had. That's all I'm saying.
 
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If a 25 year old has a 25% risk of being injured, and 2% per year, at 37 Victor Martinez has a 49% chance of being injured in 2016.

Age during the 2016 season

V. Martinez 37 (49%)
Aviles 35 (45%)
Kinsler 34 (43%)
Cabrera 33 (41%)

Romine 31 (37%)
Saltamacchia 31 (37%)
Upton 29 (33%)
Maybin 29 (33%)
J.D. Martinez 29 (33%)

Iglesias 26 (27%)
Gose 26 (27%)
McCann 26 (27%)
Castellanos 24 (23%)


K-Rod 34 (43%)
Lowe 33 (41%)
Verlander 33 (41%)

Sanchez 32 (39%)
Pelfrey 32 (39%)
Zimmermann 30 (35%)
A. Wilson 30 (35%)
J. Wilson 29 (33%)
Hardy 29 (33%)


Now, it isn't just that they get injured, but spends time on the DL. There are times when a team does not put a player on the DL but he sits for a week to 10 days.

Also to add to the discussion, is the fact the payroll is now $35 Mil more than at the end of 2015. $35 Mil bought us what improvement?



And I suspect you've looked at coin flip probabilities enough to know that those percentages don't add up to some non avoidable traffic string of injuries. The odds of losing both Cabrera and Verlander for long stretches last year was a matter of bad luck rather than inevitability.
 
And I suspect you've looked at coin flip probabilities enough to know that those percentages don't add up to some non avoidable traffic string of injuries. The odds of losing both Cabrera and Verlander for long stretches last year was a matter of bad luck rather than inevitability.

LOL , just do like i do and scroll over Rebbiv's post . It will save you a migrane
 
And I suspect you've looked at coin flip probabilities enough to know that those percentages don't add up to some non avoidable traffic string of injuries. The odds of losing both Cabrera and Verlander for long stretches last year was a matter of bad luck rather than inevitability.

No statistic proves inevitability, even Rebbiv would probably admit that.
 
That math PTSD kicking in?

Ever since he was so adamant about why cespedes sucked and showing us all his magical numbers i pay no attention to him .

Lets see , Kirk Nieuwenhuis , Seth Smith would have been better pickups , well you know because they were lefthanded . LOL

And lets not forget he said Chris Young , who's a righty , is basically the same player Cespedes is ....so excuse me for dismissing his idiocracy . mmmk ??

Now be a leader not a follower , and you might garner some respect around here . Good day sir
 
Now be a leader not a follower , and you might garner some respect around here . Good day sir

I've never been banned and my grammar isn't shit. :cheers:

7Y8VEks.gif
 
That's what i thought . A defeated man resorts to insults .

You gave nothing thoughtful to retort to junior. You're talking about Rebbiv's thoughts on Cespedes. I'm not Rebbiv. You cherry pick a couple of things he was wrong about in hindsight and...??? What exactly are you looking for? You made a shit post about Rebbiv, I responded in kind.
 
It's not a matter of expecting the board to be overly optimistic but the constant whining is rather annoying. I don't like the pelfrey deal nor did I like the Nathan signing nor the Fister trade but always spinning every move to the negative is what I find grating.

Hell I can recall many on here talking about Kinsler being a DOWNGRADE from Infante and I argued otherwise. Look at that. Look at the minors talent derived from the overpriced acquisitions. There are plusses to be had. That's all I'm saying.

Look at who is spinning things. Using their last 3 years prior, Infante performed just as well as Kinsler and it was about value, not ability.

Infante through 2017 = $28.25

Kinsler through 2017 = $57.00 Mil + $30 Mil for Fielder

Inexplicably, Infante has had a huge fall off. No one could predict this nor expect it. And if those holding my comments as some sort of negative don't see this, then I can't help you.

Career Away through 2015

O. Infante .278 BAVG .312 OBP .407 SLG .719 OPS

I. Kinsler .253 BAVG .315 OBP .404 SLG .719 OPS

All this shows, is to date, and in a park neutral setting, they have been basically the same statistical performance.

Infante is 6 months older than Kinsler.
 
Look at who is spinning things. Using their last 3 years prior, Infante performed just as well as Kinsler and it was about value, not ability.

Infante through 2017 = $28.25

Kinsler through 2017 = $57.00 Mil + $30 Mil for Fielder

Inexplicably, Infante has had a huge fall off. No one could predict this nor expect it. And if those holding my comments as some sort of negative don't see this, then I can't help you.

Career Away through 2015

O. Infante .278 BAVG .312 OBP .407 SLG .719 OPS

I. Kinsler .253 BAVG .315 OBP .404 SLG .719 OPS

All this shows, is to date, and in a park neutral setting, they have been basically the same statistical performance.

Infante is 6 months older than Kinsler.


As I've told you before they play 81 games at home. If you are going to defend a guy with a .552 OP'S last year be my guest. You were wrong. It's that simple.


Further...yes it was predictable that Infante would underperform and Kinsler would either maintain level production or excel as Kinsler had his worst season by a lot in one of those previous 3 years and infante was playing over his head. There is a reason Kinsler was seem as a much more valuable option. As to adding the fielder contract I'm quite sure you understand the flaw in that. You don't trade Fielder what do you do with Nick?

But again...OPS away is a valuable stat but not the be all end all and id.think after being wrong about several players using only away stats you would begin to see.that. Granderson was a perfect example of a guy who had much more value in New York than anywhere else for example.
 
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Ever since he was so adamant about why cespedes sucked and showing us all his magical numbers i pay no attention to him .

Lets see , Kirk Nieuwenhuis , Seth Smith would have been better pickups , well you know because they were lefthanded . LOL

And lets not forget he said Chris Young , who's a righty , is basically the same player Cespedes is ....so excuse me for dismissing his idiocracy . mmmk ??

Now be a leader not a follower , and you might garner some respect around here . Good day sir


Let's take things out of context again

Value, Value, Value. Seth Smith and Nieuwenhuis are Lefty's and a better value. The extra money saved could be used to address another area.

Cespedes has a career year and an unbelievable run with the Mets that now skews his stats. Let's just see if it is repeatable.

Career Away vs RHP

M. Cabrera 147 wRC+ .317 BAVG .383 OBP .554 SLG .937 OPS
P. Fielder 142 wRC+ .294 BAVG .401 OBP .526 SLG .927 OPS
J. Heyward 140 wRC+ .290 BAVG .377 OBP .488 SLG .865 OPS
J. Jaso 136 wRC+ .292 BAVG .379 OBP .450 SLG .829 OPS
C. Granderson 131 .273 BAVG .359 OBP .508 SLG .867 OPS
M. Joyce 131 wRC+ .260 BAVG .360 OBP .470 SLG .830 OPS
Y. Cespedes 129 wRC+ .284 BAVG .316 OBP .519 SLG .835 OPS
K. Nieuwenhuis 123 wRC+ .271 BAVG .351 OBP .443 SLG .794 OPS
L. Morrison 120 wRC+ .257 BAVG .337 OBP .467 SLG .804 OPS
M. Morse 120 wRC+ .274 BAVG .326 OBP .473 SLG .799 OPS
J.D. Martinez 120 .282 BAVG .327 OBP .477 SLG .804 OPS
V. Martinez 118 wRC+ .300 BAVG .362 OBP .461 SLG .823 OPS
S. Smith 113 wRC+ .265 BAVG .350 OBP .447 SLG .797 OPS
T. Hunter 109 wRC+ .271 BAVG .324 OBP .460 SLG .784 OPS
N. Schierholtz 104 wRC+ .262 BAVG .310 OBP .441 SLG .751 OPS
A. Avila 101 wRC+ .233 BAVG .337 OBP .391 SLG .728 OPS
A. Jackson 101 wRC+ .274 BAVG .326 OBP .410 SLG .736 OPS

J. Upton 96 wRC+ .247 BAVG .316 OBP .412 SLG .728 OPS
J. Saltalamacchia 94 wRC+ .231 BAVG .321 OBP .404 SLG .725 OPS
O. Infante 90 wRC+ .278 BAVG .311 OBP .400 SLG .711 OPS
I. Kinsler 89 wRC+ .251 BAVG .310 OBP .404 SLG .714 OPS
C. Maybin 88 wRC+ .255 BAVG .318 OBP .373 SLG .691 OPS
R. Raburn 87 wRC+ .262 BAVG .305 OBP .393 SLG .698 OPS
Av. Garcia 87 wRC+ .254 BAVG .301 OBP .377 SLG .678 OPS
Del. Young 86 wRC+ .271 BAVG .308 OBP .388 SLG .696 OPS
D. Fowler 86 wRC+ .244 BAVG .331 OBP .372 SLG .703 OPS
C. Young 77 wRC+ .214 BAVG .291 OBP .387 SLG .678 OPS
N. Castellanos 77 wRC+ .241 BAVG .272 OBP .383 SLG .655 OPS
A. Gose 76 wRC+ .232 BAVG .302 OBP .337 SLG .639 OPS
M. Aviles 73 wRC+ .264 BAVG .278 OBP .374 SLG .652 OPS
R. Davis 71 wRC+ .250 BAVG .299 OBP .332 SLG .631 OPS
J. Iglesias 62 wRC+ .249 BAVG .290 OBP .308 SLG .598 OPS
A. Romine 56 wRC+ .221 BAVG .277 OBP .277 SLG .554 OPS
J. McCann 47 wRC+ .229 BAVG .261 OBP .288 SLG .548 OPS



Career Away vs LHP

J. Iglesias 152 wRC+ .341 BAVG .404 OBP .516 SLG .920 OPS
M. Cabrera 145 wRC+ .302 BAVG .411 OBP .529 SLG .940 OPS
R. Raburn 139 wRC+ .273 BAVG .355 OBP .534 SLG .889 OPS
J. McCann 133 wRC+ .315 BAVG .362 OBP .481 SLG .843 OPS
M. Morse 128 wRC+ .284 BAVG .337 OBP .489 SLG .826 OPS
V. Martinez 127 wRC+ .305 BAVG .370 OBP .487 SLG .857 OPS
Del. Young 124 wRC+ .319 BAVG .353 OBP .493 SLG .846 OPS
T. Hunter 122 wRC+ .283 BAVG .348 OBP .490 SLG .838 OPS
C. Young 120 wRC+ .255 BAVG .354 OBP .478 SLG .832 OPS
J.D. Martinez 116 wRC+ .274 BAVG .349 OBP .435 SLG .784 OPS
J. Upton 115 wRC+ .251 BAVG .360 OBP .441 SLG .801 OPS

Av. Garcia 106 wRC+ .297 BAVG .343 OBP .430 SLG .773 OPS
C. Granderson 105 wRC+ .241 BAVG .324 OBP .438 SLG .762 OPS
P. Fielder 104 wRC+ .260 BAVG .327 OBP .435 SLG .762 OPS
R. Davis 104 wRC+ .284 BAVG .339 OBP .407 SLG .746 OPS
Y. Cespedes 100 wRC+ .234 BAVG .295 OBP .441 SLG .736 OPS

L. Morrison 95 wRC+ .252 BAVG .337 OBP .357 SLG .694 OPS
O. Infante 95 wRC+ .276 BAVG .312 OBP .422 SLG .734 OPS
I. Kinsler 93 wRC+ .260 BAVG .327 OBP .405 SLG .732 OPS
D. Fowler 93 wRC+ .260 BAVG .362 OBP .359 SLG .721 OPS
M. Aviles 87 wRC+ .263 BAVG .302 OBP .400 SLG .702 OPS
N. Castellanos 86 wRC+ .236 BAVG .300 OBP .378 SLG .678 OPS
A. Romine 85 wRC+ .274 BAVG .307 OBP .357 SLG .664 OPS
C. Maybin 84 wRC+ .240 BAVG .303 OBP .351 SLG .654 OPS
J. Heyward 76 wRC+ .218 BAVG .293 OBP .338 SLG .632 OPS
A. Jackson 73 wRC+ .226 BAVG .292 OBP .344 SLG .636 OPS
N. Schierholtz 66 wRC+ .239 BAVG .288 OBP .315 SLG .603 OPS
J. Saltalamacchia 54 wRC+ .199 BAVG .263 OBP .323 SLG .586 OPS
A. Avila 53 wRC+ .203 BAVG .284 OBP .262 SLG .545 OPS
A. Gose 53 wRC+ .222 BAVG .257 OBP .306 SLG .563 OPS
S. Smith 50 wRC+ .187 BAVG .267 OBP .287 SLG .554 OPS
J. Jaso 44 wRC+ .147 BAVG .279 OBP .196 SLG .475 OPS
M. Joyce 39 wRC+ .155 BAVG .214 OBP .290 SLG .504 OPS
K. Nieuwenhuis 10 wRC+ .149 BAVG .216 OBP .149 SLG .365 OPS

100 wRC+ = Average

I cannot for the life of me look at this data and not be concerned. I do not see too many positives. DET has only 3 hitters that are above average against RHP on the road for their career. So what do we do, we go out and get more Righthanded hitters. That is all fine and dandy, if they could hit RHP at an above average rate, but they cannot. We can run 6 starters out against LHP and be above average. I could reduce the data to last 3 years, but then the concern for some would be the sample rate.

So, I have offered up ideas of players who hit RHP really well as a low cost solution for this team?s dilemma and I get roasted for it. The same people who do not offer solutions themselves. And then add to the fact most of my critics will skim past all the data and focus on one or two ?bits?.

This isn?t my data. It is the player?s data. Don?t kill the messenger if you don?t like the message.
 
As I've told you before they play 81 games at home. If you are going to defend a guy with a .552 OP'S last year be my guest. You were wrong. It's that simple.


Further...yes it was predictable that Infante would underperform and Kinsler would either maintain level production or excel as Kinsler had his worst season by a lot in one of those previous 3 years and infante was playing over his head. There is a reason Kinsler was seem as a much more valuable option. As to adding the fielder contract I'm quite sure you understand the flaw in that. You don't trade Fielder what do you do with Nick?

But again...OPS away is a valuable stat but not the be all end all and id.think after being wrong about several players using only away stats you would begin to see.that. Granderson was a perfect example of a guy who had much more value in New York than anywhere else for example.

How do you mitigate home park bias? How do you compare players who play in extreme ballparks (Coors, Petco, Arlington)?

The fact remains that Infante's and Kinsler's Away stats, both career and 2011-2013, are the same. How does that make me wrong? Those are the player's stats, not mine.

What was predictable? Do tell so I can be educated as to what to look for in the future. I have studied statistics for over 40 years and am willing to gain any insight you might have to what precluded Infante's falloff.


Granderson played for the Yankees from 2010-2013.

TOTAL 122 wRC+ .245 BAVG .335 OBP .495 SLG .830 OPS

HOME 129 wRC+ .254 BAVG .342 OBP .523 SLG .865 OPS

AWAY 116 wRC+ .236 BAVG .328 OBP .468 SLG .796 OPS


I suppose you think this proves your point? Yet, most MLB players have better Home stats than Away stats.

All MLB OFers from 2011-2013

HOME 108 wRC+ .267 BAVG .335 OBP .429 SLG .764 OPS

AWAY 99 wRC+ .256 BAVG .321 OBP .408 SLG .729 OPS

So how exactly did Granderson benefit from playing in Yankee stadium? Especially considering he was well above the average MLB OF Away during that time-frame.
 
You don't trade Fielder what do you do with Nick?


I don't understand what you mean. Are you saying they traded away a very good power-hitting LH bat because they wanted to eventually make room for Nick C?

Come on man, DD could have done what he's done forever, and traded him away like every other minor leaguer who showed any potential if the options were keeping Prince and Miggy together. They also could have kept Nick in the OF, you know like they did when they called him up in 2013.

I don't believe Fielder was traded because we needed a 2B, it was because they knew they needed to cut some salary and Fielder was unhappy at the time, especially with problems in the clubhouse. Kinsler-Fielder was just the swap that both teams could work out on two high salary guys who has underperformed.
 
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