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Wide spread election fraud 2020

Biden is going to be bad on that issue as well. You would've been better voting for a third party, or a write-in as a protest vote. You cannot vote for change anymore... it's that rigged. That's where my calculus is.


If there are local races/issues important to you, you can still vote for those.
Trump has taught me there's worse than bad. There's so bad people not under direct control of the president hit the brakes on projects just because they don't know how bad it's going to get and can't project their budgets.
 
so it's capitalism in general then?


keep trying to force him into that argument so you can call him a "socialist" and other mean names, and not actually face the results of what Bain and other LBO chop shops have done to corporate America & employment in this country... it's all you got here.
 
I guess I'm missing the joke you're making.

It's not really a joke - I'm wondering if you, like MC have the same misguided, wildly inaccurate understanding of what private equity and "LBO chop shops" do. I don't recall where you stood, if you made it known during the Toys-R-Us discussion where he once again made it clear he has no idea what he's talking about.
 
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It's not really a joke - I'm wondering if you, like MC have the same misguided, wildly inaccurate understanding of what private equity and "LBO chop shops" do. I don't recall where you stood, if you made it known during the Toys-R-Us discussion where he once again made it clear he has no idea what he's talking about.
You really can't tell that we're different posters, huh.
 
It's not really a joke - I'm wondering if you, like MC have the same misguided, wildly inaccurate understanding of what private equity and "LBO chop shops" do. I don't recall where you stood, if you made it known during the Toys-R-Us discussion where he once again made it clear he has no idea what he's talking about.


We can continue the Toys R Us discussion here. I'm curious to know your thoughts on the Bloomberg article that pointed out it was profitable, but for the debt private equity saddled it with.
 
We can continue the Toys R Us discussion here. I'm curious to know your thoughts on the Bloomberg article that pointed out it was profitable, but for the debt private equity saddled it with.

just read my posts where I explain to you that thanks to private equity, Toys R Us was around 13 years longer than it would have been without it. The Bloomberg article is garbage and Matt Levine is an idiot. In 2004 I was working for a Retail/Consumer portfolio and I remember a bunch of sales people calling and telling us to buy Toys R Us. I told every one of them that the business was garbage and it wasn't going to be around in 5 years and they all said "forget about the toys business, it's a REIT on steroids" - the calls were coming out of their Real Estate not Retail analysts - they were valuing the business on the basis of it's real estate holdings, not it's operations. The thinking was TOY would restructure and close a shit ton of stores or shut down altogether and other big box retailers would be leasing all those stores. We still didn't like it - how many Toys R Us stores don't already have a Best Buy within 5 miles?

At the time, Toys R Us already had a massively bloated balance sheet with old, inefficient stores, antiquated systems, a terrible online shopping experience and no products other than toys. They did have Babies R Us but that business was getting hit by Buy Buy Baby (which, as a part of Bed, Bath & Beyond is essentially now also bankrupt thanks to Amazon). They had a business model that relied on about 30 days between Thanksgiving and Christmas to turn a profit because they lost money every other month of the year. Walmart was already eating their lunch because Walmart could double or triple their in-store Toy offerings for 2 months a year then re-allocate that space to other products 10 months a year and undercut Toys R Us on price. Toys R Us simply couldn't price match and be profitable. In case you didn't read past the first paragraph, Matt Levine doesn't mention TOY was already struggling mightily in 2005 in his article - he doesn't talk at all about the shape the business was in prior to the LBO.

So along comes Bain, KKR and a Real Estate company - probably their biggest leaseholder - and they buy the company, cut costs, streamline operations, updates systems, update stores, close others, improve their online presence, etc and kept the business alive well past the point anyone thought possible. But it was still very iffy and then Amazon who doesn't have to dedicate any retail space at all to the same products, goes after the business aggressively and between them and Walmart, it's simply game over - they can't compete no matter what Matt Levine says. Toys R Us operations were profitable BECAUSE private equity came in and restructured it - they wouldn't have made it past 2008 without it and all those employees would have lost their jobs a full decade sooner. Maybe you (and Matt Levine) think if the workers controlled the stores instead of private equity, they could have restructured it without any debt - through the magic of the collective, perhaps...

It may not have worked out for Bain, KKR and Vornado - it's a private company so who knows what value they got over 13 years, but the idea that Toys R Us failed because of private equity is simply absurd, you have to be an idiot to believe that.
 
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You really can't tell that we're different posters, huh.

I'm aware of your differences. I think it's you who is having a harder time seeing how, in many ways, those differences have shrunk - and it's not because his views have shifted.
 
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I'm aware of your differences. I think it's you who is having a harder time seeing how, in many ways, those differences have shrunk - and it's not because his views have shifted.
If you're aware, and you weren't joking, then what was the point of asking "so it's capitalism in general then?"
 
to see if you would answer the question.
Your response to "The business world requires assholes, sure, but we don't need to be led by people that specialize in it." is to ask if I think capitalism is bad? You should have backpedaled and pretended it was a joke I didn't get.
 
Your response to "The business world requires assholes, sure, but we don't need to be led by people that specialize in it." is to ask if I think capitalism is bad? You should have backpedaled and pretended it was a joke I didn't get.

it was a bit vague and comes well short of explaining anything - a lot of things are run by assholes in the public and private sector. Plus, Mitt Romney had a reputation for being one of if not the most decent man in politics. I don't recall anyone ever calling him an asshole - except the idiots who believed the Obama line that he bought companies so he could take health insurance away from people so their wives would die when they got cancer. That alone makes Obama an asshole and he led the country for 8 years. So what is it about Bain Capital that makes Mitt Romney an asshole?
 
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At 247, Biden is 23 electoral votes away in the electoral college count. California will put him over the needed 270 votes.
 
it was a bit vague and comes well short of explaining anything - a lot of things are run by assholes in the public and private sector. Plus, I don't recall anyone ever calling Mitt Romney an asshole - except the idiots who believed the Obama line that he bought companies so he could take health insurance away from people so their wives would die when they got cancer. That alone make Obama an asshole and he led the country for 8 years. So what is it about Bain Capital that makes Mitt Romney an asshole?


It was vague. You should have said that, that would have made a sense. I could have been more clear and added that the American economy doesn't need to be managed like a troubled asset.


Being an asshole is inherent to the task of minimizing losses/maximizing profits as the ship goes down. If not outright getting out of past obligations, at least giving up on past expectations.
 
We can continue the Toys R Us discussion here. I'm curious to know your thoughts on the Bloomberg article that pointed out it was profitable, but for the debt private equity saddled it with.

follow up question for you, your article says this about the restructuring, getting rid of private equity...

If Toys "R" Us stores are a good business they can just stay open and be good stores, while if the leveraged-buyout debt is bad it can just go away. And in fact that seems to be the plan: The company has gotten financing to "fund operations while it restructures the liabilities," and it "doesn’t plan to close stores and says its locations across the globe will continue normal operations." Major suppliers seem to be strong supporters of the company's continuing operations. Toys "R" Us plans to raise store employees' wages in bankruptcy.

How did that restructuring work out for what you say is a profitable, viable business? Have you been to a Toys R Us lately?

Here's another hilarious line from you that demonstrates you have no fucking clue what you're talking about when it comes to business. From post 21 of the thread you linked:

the cost to service the debt is nearly as high as their operating income! how fucking greedy can these guys be? fuck! still you'll hear endless talking heads on business TV attributing this to Amazon...

Debt payments are based on the amount of debt a company takes on, not how much money it earns. You don't get to tell your creditors "sorry, we only made X so we don't have to pay you what we owe - don't be greedy." Anybody who has ever taken an accounting or finance class and 90%+ of the people who haven't knows this. How I didn't ridicule you 3 years ago for this monumentally stupid post is beyond me - must not have been on my game that day.
 
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At 247, Biden is 23 electoral votes away in the electoral college count. California will put him over the needed 270 votes.

Steely Dan predicted, no stated, in My Old School ?California tumbles into the sea.?

Will you get out before then?
 
<Comes in after a few years, looks around, leaves my own biased crap, and then heads back out>

Observations (biased as they may be):
1) Things haven't changed around here much. Spartanmack and MichChamp are still at each other's throats. :*)

2) That moment when someone says, "I can't believe you would vote for Trump."

I simply reply “I'm not voting for Trump.”

I'm voting for the First Amendment and freedom of speech.

I'm voting for the Second Amendment and my right to defend my life and my
family.

I'm voting for the next Supreme Court Justice(s) to protect the Constitution and the
Bill of Rights.

I’m voting for the continued growth of my retirement 401K and the stock market.

I’m voting for a return of our troops from foreign countries and the end to America’s
involvement in foreign conflicts.

I'm voting for the Electoral College & the Republic we live in.

I'm voting for the Police to be respected once again and to ensure Law & Order.

I’m voting for the continued appointment of Federal Judges who respect the
Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

I’m voting for our jobs to remain in America and not be outsourced all over again to
China, Mexico and other foreign countries.

I’m voting for secure borders and legal immigration.

I'm voting for the Military & the Veterans who fought for this Country to give the
American people their freedoms.

I’m voting for continued peace progress in the middle east.

I’m voting to fight against human/child trafficking.

I’m voting for Freedom of Religion.

I'm voting for the right to speak my opinion & not be censored.

I'm not just voting for one person, I'm voting for the future of my Country.

I'm voting for my children and my grandchildren to ensure their freedoms and their
future.

I just didn't like most of what the Democrats stood for. I was voting based on perceived values that I liked. Who wasn't voting on that?

3) Trump supporters get accused rather regularly of being Fascists. Let me ask you, which political party regularly censors other's thoughts on Twitter and Facebook, moves to suppress free speech on college campuses, and bans fictional novels in public libraries? It isn't the Republicans, but I'm guessing you have 100's of examples of Trump supporters doing much worse, right? So why does anyone have to be Fascist, really?

4) Trump has lost. The Fat Lady has been clearing her throat for some time now. Whether the election was stolen, rigged, or the most secure ever, Democracy is still going to win, it always does. Thank God for that.

5) Hatred is an emotion that runs a hell of a lot deeper than most others, and it is amplified by political division. Unfortunately it is prevalent on both sides. None of the current arguments are going anywhere for a damn long time.

6) Trump is the worst narcissist to have ever held the office of POTUS, but I believe that does not mean he was the worst President ever.

7) Trump didn't kill 300,000 Americans, COVID did. Did anyone have the perfect response? Are you saying no one would have been killed if Trump wasn't the President? How about compassion over incivility? You can't control others, but you damn sure can control yourself. Do I wish others, including the POTUS were more empathetic? Of course, but that, in and of itself, did not kill anyone.

Final thought:
What ever happened to being Americans?

I can see MichChamp's or Thumb's response already - "Spare me your lecture KOW-POOP."

Sorry for the interruption, off soapbox, and now the regularly scheduled arguments can continue. Hopefully, I am back for a bit.
 
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It was vague. You should have said that, that would have made a sense. I could have been more clear and added that the American economy doesn't need to be managed like a troubled asset.


Being an asshole is inherent to the task of minimizing losses/maximizing profits as the ship goes down. If not outright getting out of past obligations, at least giving up on past expectations.

Or you could have just said something “no, that’s not it. I didn’t like him because...”. The American economy is a troubled asset and it does need to be treated as such - but you have to be out of your mind to think Romney would be the guy that would let it fail like it and take on the recession like we needed to. Just a brief examination of his tenure as Governor of Massachusetts would make that pretty obvious - the guy was a total moderate. And the way he turned around the Salt Lake City Olympics disaster would further indicate maybe he was the right choice for the person to run the American economy.

Also, I fundamentally disagree that being an asshole is inherent to the task of minimizing losses/maximizing gains “as the ship goes down.” Generally it’s the smart thing to do - as in the case of Toys R Us, they extended the life of that company and the jobs of many of its employees by more than a decade.
 
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Steely Dan predicted, no stated, in My Old School “California tumbles into the sea.”

Will you get out before then?

If only Superman hadn’t stopped Lex Luthor from sinking it into the ocean back in the 80s...
 
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