Anybody here go to church?

[tinselwolverine]

Thanks, thanks...

 

[Mitchrapp]

Champ wife is a closet Christian, probably Catholic . Baptizing someone is giving the little one to the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It's not done for shits and giggles.

 

[Sbee]

Don't want to hijack this thread but that all happened not only WITH but BECAUSE of unions. If American employers could pay a market clearing wage, the US would still have a competitive manufacturing sector and a strong middle class. Just look at autoworkers in the nonunion south...

And European automakers are doing well with much stronger unions than there are in the US.

 

[Spartanmack]

And European automakers are doing well with much stronger unions than there are in the US.

Are they? You can't say that about VW or Audi. And BMW and Daimler (Mercedes) stocks don't trade at higher premiums to American and Japanese manufacturers. And if they are, it's certainly not BECAUSE of unions. If it were, then why are they all locating their US operations in the non-union South? BMW, Mercedes plus all the Japanese and Korean manufacturers have non-unionized operations in the US...

 

[Sbee]

Are they? You can't say that about VW or Audi. And BMW and Daimler (Mercedes) stocks don't trade at higher premiums to American and Japanese manufacturers. And if they are, it's certainly not BECAUSE of unions. If it were, then why are they all locating their US operations in the non-union South? BMW, Mercedes plus all the Japanese and Korean manufacturers have non-unionized operations in the US...

I won't say it's because of unions but they aren't the job killer that you say they are.

I guess we should just trust corporations to be fair and equitable.

 

[byco42]

And European automakers are doing well with much stronger unions than there are in the US.

It's more cultural than union-driven. For example, the Germans are an industrial people. Having spent much time in the automotive plants of many premium auto manufacturers, including Audi and VW, they take their vehicle-building very seriously and have for decades. Not so much in the U.S. until somewhat recently. And GM, well ... it is ever the joke of a carmaker.

 

[Spartanmack]

I won't say it's because of unions but they aren't the job killer that you say they are.

I guess we should just trust corporations to be fair and equitable.

Seems to be working just fine for non-union autoworkers earning a middle class living in the south. You don't hear them clamoring for a union. And I didn't say they were a job killer in Europe, but they most certainly are here - that's indisputable and here in the US is what counts to me.

 

[Thumb]

Seems to be working just fine for non-union autoworkers earning a middle class living in the south. You don't hear them clamoring for a union. And I didn't say they were a job killer in Europe, but they most certainly are here - that's indisputable and here in the US is what counts to me.

They are not clamoring for unions because not having a union is the only reason they have those jobs. That's the reason those plants get built down south, similar to the reason some get built in Mexico and China.

I mean it's just fine for those people down south earning less than people doing the same job up north right? I bet they don't even miss things like that second car, sending kids to collage, going to the dentist, etc.

 

[Spartanmack]

They are not clamoring for unions because not having a union is the only reason they have those jobs. That's the reason those plants get built down south, similar to the reason some get built in Mexico and China.

I mean it's just fine for those people down south earning less than people doing the same job up north right? I bet they don't even miss things like that second car, sending kids to collage, going to the dentist, etc.

You're exactly right - they choose not to have a union because they know it's bad for them and could push their job overseas.

And it is fine for those people who are earning a market clearing wage - nobody is forcing them to work at Honda or Hyundai in Alabama, they work there because they get a good job, earning a good wage with good benefits (healthcare, 401k, etc) that enables them to live a middle class lifestyle - they're not living in poverty. Many of them may be dual income households but they are getting paid based on what their skills are worth not based on what they need to put 3 kids through college. If they make less it's because what few union jobs left in the north are being paid an unsustainable, above market wage package - that's why those jobs are all gone. This is the flaw with liberal thinking - you actually think that compensation that covers 2 cars, a house, a stay at home parent, college tuition for all the kids and 80% of your salary in perpetuity upon retirement regardless of the skills necessary to perform that job and the value added by performing it is a fundamental right. That is just flat out absurd. If you want to bitch about college being unaffordable for the middle class, bitch about the fed keeping interest rates so low for decades and all the free money from the government that is driving up tuition costs, not Ford, GE, US Steel and whoever else for not picking up the tab for your kids.

 

[Sbee]

You're exactly right - they choose not to have a union because they know it's bad for them and could push their job overseas.

And it is fine for those people who are earning a market clearing wage - nobody is forcing them to work at Honda or Hyundai in Alabama, they work there because they get a good job, earning a good wage with good benefits (healthcare, 401k, etc). If they make less it's because what few union jobs left in the north are being paid an unsustainable, above market wage package - that's why those jobs are all gone. This is the flaw with liberal thinking - you really think that compensation that covers 2 cars, a house, a stay at home parent, college tuition for all the kids and 80% of your salary in perpetuity upon retirement regardless of the skills necessary to perform that job. That is just flat out absurd. If you want to bitch about college being unaffordable for the middle class, bitch about the fed keeping interest rates so low for decades and all the free money from the government that is driving up tuition costs, not Ford, GE, US Steel and whoever else for not picking up the tab for your kids.

Globalization and market forces continue to drive down the standard of living and eradicate the middle class so let's blame the fed.

 

[Sbee]

Also, since you're complaining about rates I'd love to hear your thoughts on monetary policy and government spending.

 

[Spartanmack]

Globalization and market forces continue to drive down the standard of living and eradicate the middle class so let's blame the fed.

Globalization and market forces are what drive prices down for he goods and services we buy. They do not eradicate the middle class. Emerging markets are growing their middle class quite rapidly, thanks to globalization and market forces. Regulation perversely incentivizes if not, forces the misallocation of resources (labor and capital). Anyone who has taken economics and has any common sense knows that inefficient resource allocation is the worst thing for any economy - unless they studied under Paul Krugman or some other socialist idiot.

Also, since you're complaining about rates I'd love to hear your thoughts on monetary policy and government spending.

Well, since interest rates are monetary policy, it should be clear what my view is on the fed. As for fiscal policy, I don't think anyone would dispute that we are spending money and running deficits at an unsustainable rate.

 

[Michchamp]

Globalization and market forces are what drive prices down for he goods and services we buy. They do not eradicate the middle class. Emerging markets are growing their middle class quite rapidly, thanks to globalization and market forces. Regulation perversely incentivizes if not, forces the misallocation of resources (labor and capital). Anyone who has taken economics and has any common sense knows that inefficient resource allocation is the worst thing for any economy - unless they studied under Paul Krugman or some other socialist idiot.



Well, since interest rates are monetary policy, it should be clear what my view is on the fed. As for fiscal policy, I don't think anyone would dispute that we are spending money and running deficits at an unsustainable rate.

lots of people would dispute that.

 

[Spartanmack]

lots of people would dispute that.

Edit: As for fiscal policy, I don't think anyone with any credibility would dispute that we are spending money and running deficits at an unsustainable rate.

 

[Michchamp]

Edit: As for fiscal policy, I don't think anyone with any credibility would dispute that we are spending money and running deficits at an unsustainable rate.

the interest rates on t-bills have remained rock-bottom throughout obama's presidency. If there was a risk of default any time soon that would not have been the case. Long term... who knows? but that's really neither here nor there, since complaints about deficit spending are used to oppose fiscal stimulus in the present.

but nevermind that... Fox News tells you so, and those Tea Partiers sound so credible, right?

 

[Gulo Blue]

As for fiscal policy, I don't think anyone would dispute that we are spending money and running deficits at an unsustainable rate.

Deficits are in a bad place, but they are coming down at a good rate.

https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=us+deficit/gdp

This link should pull up the deficit/gdp ratio. Look at the slope of periods where the deficit was on the way down. Most of Clinton term is about the same as most of Bush's 2nd term. The last couple years have been steeper than both. The deficit is aggressively on the way down and it's already back into Reagan territory. If we can maintain the current rate of progress, we're about 2 years from getting back into positive territory.

 

[Sbee]

the interest rates on t-bills have remained rock-bottom throughout obama's presidency. If there was a risk of default any time soon that would not have been the case. Long term... who knows? but that's really neither here nor there, since complaints about deficit spending are used to oppose fiscal stimulus in the present.

but nevermind that... Fox News tells you so, and those Tea Partiers sound so credible, right?

I hope we never get to see what the tea baggers and Paul Ryan want to implement. I don't know if people are sadistic or stupid or both, drastically cutting spending would send the economy in a tailspin. of course someones spending is another persons income, if we both try to spend less at the same time we'll both be impoverished. individual choices can lead to results that benefit nobody, then you get in the downward spiral. i'm ok with spending as a consistent percentage of GPD as long as rates are low, i'd hate to see the economic consequences of the Ryan budget.

 

[Michchamp]

I hope we never get to see what the tea baggers and Paul Ryan want to implement. I don't know if people are sadistic or stupid or both, drastically cutting spending would send the economy in a tailspin. of course someones spending is another persons income, if we both try to spend less at the same time we'll both be impoverished. individual choices can lead to results that benefit nobody, then you get in the downward spiral. i'm ok with spending as a consistent percentage of GPD as long as rates are low, i'd hate to see the economic consequences of the Ryan budget.

the side of me that likes to think that there is "a plan" out there, or a method to DC's madness, believes that the Paul Ryan or Grover Norquist types only exist as a hedge against us going back to the Eisenhower days, when guys like Mitt Romney couldn't get fat off the carried interest loophole, or enjoy taking seven (or eight) figure salaries while golfing and fucking around (or as they call it "doing deals") without that graduated income tax rate taking 90% of the fat.

the side of me that has seen that adage about how little wisdom rules the world to be true thinks we could easily go over the edge at any time... and there are plenty on the right who would welcome an American Hitler, just maybe not with all the concentration camps and stuff.

 

[Sbee]

the side of me that likes to think that there is "a plan" out there, or a method to DC's madness, believes that the Paul Ryan or Grover Norquist types only exist as a hedge against us going back to the Eisenhower days, when guys like Mitt Romney couldn't get fat off the carried interest loophole, or enjoy taking seven (or eight) figure salaries while golfing and fucking around (or as they call it "doing deals") without that graduated income tax rate taking 90% of the fat.

the side of me that has seen that adage about how little wisdom rules the world to be true thinks we could easily go over the edge at any time... and there are plenty on the right who would welcome an American Hitler, just maybe not with all the concentration camps and stuff.

I think it's just looking out for yourself and fat cat friends under the guise of doing what's best for the country. I'm only about 10% through Piketty but he does mention that the issue isn't income inequality but it's undeserved income inequality. he favors a global wealth tax and much lower taxes on earned income, which would solve the problem that you mentioned. if you make a great product or you're good at what you do, you should be highly compensated, being rich just because you're rich is a different story.

the problem is on the right, everyone who's wealthy deserved it even if it was just being born into the right family, conversely it's true with the poor too.

 

[lostleader]

Debating on becoming amish. Think I could live that lifestyle if I could sneak some tv time in on Saturdays.

Also attended church currently on occasion. Cant find a place to hang my hat since I left home. I surprisingly agree with some of you as the church has become corrupt and lost its was in a lot of places. However much of our society has as well. But I whole heartedly believe this.