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no wonder Mitt won't release his tax returns

I went a little overboard on Newt, at this point he's Romney's biggest threat. I was basing what I said in anticipation of Americans (mainly Christians) making a big deal about personal values.
 
SLICK said:
KAWDUP said:
If it were really a guarantee, I would be a mulit-millionaire. Nice to see you can predict the future with such certainty. I'll just say he is the most likely candidate, as he really has been since the beginning of the campaign.


anyone else but mittens i will eat my shoes

Jeremy Clarkson threatened to do that once.
 
mhughes0021 said:
MichChamp02 said:
aside from his inheritance, most of Romney's $$$ came from running Bain Capital's LBOs (Leveraged Buy-outs). there is an article out studying just how many of their acquisitions were made & assisted by government subsidies. E.g. Bain buys up XYZ Tools, Romney uses his connections to get them tax breaks, subsidies, grants, etc. from the state/local gov't to "create jobs" making them more profitable.

but instead of creating jobs... they "loan" Bain a huge chunk of money from XYZ Tools, or pay themselves 100% dividends from the profits, layoff a bunch of workers, and then either merge XYZ Tools with another company, or spin it off, having sucked all the wealth out of it.

AND THEN... they move those profits, despite being entirely earned in the US, and often with government assistance, offshore to avoid paying US income tax on them.

And this is okay... because that mean old government would be "unfairly" trying to take their hard-earned dollars...

Im on your side on this. With Mittens history in mind im shocked hes even in contention. The economy the way it is and his main job was to put people out of jobs and then give those jobs to people oversees....dude should be enemey #1. Seriously at this point people should be shot for doing that. Newt is using this every chance he can get to push himself back up in the polls.

Trouble with that is, you aren't telling the whole story with this rhetoric.

. . . and if getting shot for that was the punishment, you would be taking out a boat load of liberals and Democrats too, so quit it with the holier than thou stance.
 
KAWDUP said:
mhughes0021 said:
Im on your side on this. With Mittens history in mind im shocked hes even in contention. The economy the way it is and his main job was to put people out of jobs and then give those jobs to people oversees....dude should be enemey #1. Seriously at this point people should be shot for doing that. Newt is using this every chance he can get to push himself back up in the polls.

Trouble with that is, you aren't telling the whole story with this rhetoric.

. . . and if getting shot for that was the punishment, you would be taking out a boat load of liberals and Democrats too, so quit it with the holier than thou stance.

im not republican or democrat...im a realist and none of them are real. shoot them all and bring the jobs back home.
 
If you're a realist, why are shocked that he is even in contention? Seems like status quo to me, and that is not really surpising in any way.

"Shoot them all"? Sounds more like the start of a radical manifesto than a realist's crede.

. . . and before you get all hot and bothered, I'm just messin' with ya. :*)

I think I am mostly hoping that some here start consider both sides of the coin. Seems to get pretty one-sided here sometimes.
 
KAWDUP said:
If you're a realist, why are shocked that he is even in contention? Seems like status quo to me, and that is not really surpising in any way.

"Shoot them all"? Sounds more like the start of a radical manifesto than a realist's crede.

. . . and before you get all hot and bothered, I'm just messin' with ya. :*)

I think I am mostly hoping that some here start consider both sides of the coin. Seems to get pretty one-sided here sometimes.

hard not to be one sided when the "Right" offers the clown show that it presently is....Obama may not be perfect or even close to it but the "flip side" as you put it is downright laughable.
 
KAWDUP said:
If you're a realist, why are shocked that he is even in contention? Seems like status quo to me, and that is not really surpising in any way.

"Shoot them all"? Sounds more like the start of a radical manifesto than a realist's crede.

. . . and before you get all hot and bothered, I'm just messin' with ya. :*)

I think I am mostly hoping that some here start consider both sides of the coin. Seems to get pretty one-sided here sometimes.
nah, i see both sides. For instance i brought up Newts PAC but in reality Obamas PAC is gonna be the biggest PAC ever this year.

If the republicans could ever get off this deregulation kick then id take them more seriously. It just seems they have very little knowledge of what theyre talking about and makes them less appealing.
 
Well when is it ever hard not to be one-sided when you firmly believe that only one side is a bunch of clowns? How much basis in fact is that opinion? Not much, but of course that is my opinion.

I'm here to tell you, they all seem like a bunch of clowns to me, but I'm not really laughing. I bring up the parallels because both sides exhibit some idiocy and both participate in the same rhetoric war. Neither side has a monopoly on those traits.

I really do want to think that I am offering a realistic look at what is happening. You may disagree, as others here will do, but it won't dampen my attempts to do it.

In my opinion, both sides have actions that speak louder than rhetoric

E.g.
1) If we want to lower health care costs, why don't we allow Insurance companies to compete across state lines?
2) If we want more jobs, why don't we allow for more drilling for domestic oil? (not making a judgment about the pros and cons, just that it goes both ways.)

Each side has their issues that make them seem like they really aren't for a better America.
. . . and so it continues . . .
 
KAWDUP said:
Well when is it ever hard not to be one-sided when you firmly believe that only one side is a bunch of clowns? How much basis in fact is that opinion? Not much, but of course that is my opinion.

I'm here to tell you, they all seem like a bunch of clowns to me, but I'm not really laughing. I bring up the parallels because both sides exhibit some idiocy and both participate in the same rhetoric war. Neither side has a monopoly on those traits.

I really do want to think that I am offering a realistic look at what is happening. You may disagree, as others here will do, but it won't dampen my attempts to do it.

In my opinion, both sides have actions that speak louder than rhetoric

E.g.
1) If we want to lower health care costs, why don't we allow Insurance companies to compete across state lines?
2) If we want more jobs, why don't we allow for more drilling for domestic oil? (not making a judgment about the pros and cons, just that it goes both ways.)

Each side has their issues that make them seem like they really aren't for a better America.
. . . and so it continues . . .
The reason its become such a big joke on a national level is because by now they have to understand how dumb they sound and yet they still have like 6000 debates scheduled. Its turned into reality tv.

Obama obviously has no reason to speak on these issues at the current moment or else hed probably sound just as dumb in some cases.

I wouldnt mind hearing how they feel on all the iranian physicists getting whacked...thats a good debate.
 
It's only become a joke to you and others that think like you. That is not even close to a majority. You will have to find me someone who does not have an agenda or axe to grind with the GOP to call it a "big joke" or that they "sound so dumb" before anyone would start agreeing with it. It is the same on the other side when Conservatives say the same things about Obama. None of it is true, just more rhetoric. Laugh away, but it doesn't represent jack shit - only your own ignorance.
 
KAWDUP said:
MichChamp02 said:
and you're wrong about LBO shops leaving the companies they buy in better shape. maybe in some cases, but in the vast majority of them, they're taking a lot more out of them than they leave them with. that's why they (Romney) went into the business...

I'm wrong am I? I happen to know about a number of them in the business. They make excellent money, that is why those LOB shops do it. If there wasn't money to be made (lots of it), they would never get involved.

. . . but you are going to have provide more than layoff numbers to prove to me that the wealth was sucked out of most of these companies. I believe I have some first hand knowledge in this realm. I will see if I can find you some examples when I get the chance.

You can start by looking at Companies that Bain interacted with, and tell me how many of those went bankrupt? You can find the names of some of them even in most Wiki's on the subject.

I won't hold my breath.

not saying they would have to go bankrupt to be in worse shape. just saddled with debt. and the workers would have had their wages/benefits cut. Romney & Bain, however, would've made their money. Hardly a model of efficiency; it's just a transfer of wealth from the economically weak (hourly workers/manufacturers) to the powerful.

Krugman had a blog post on this today. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/23/breach-of-trust/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto
quote: <blockquote>Summers and Shleifer argued back in 1988 that buyouts are often aimed at
 
OK we need to make a distinction between venture capitalist holding type companies (private equity firms) whose primary reason for being in business is buying companies with reasonable debt to equity ratios and then streamlining them such that they may be combined with other related owned or acquired companies, and then sold off for a profit, or greatly expanded in some cases, and the companies who use predatory methods to perform their leveraged buyouts. LBO is not really a type of company, it is more closely related to a business practice or model.

Bain & Co has been part of some colossal buyouts that did not work - but in many cases it is unclear of the investment firm's intentions. A huge majority of those deals were not entered into in an attempt to destroy the company, but would fail usually due to finding out the debt to equity ratios were way too high, and in many cases hidden from the investors.

The big negative comes about because a company's success (in the form of assets on the balance sheet) can be used against it as collateral by a hostile company that acquires it. This type of predatory practice is frowned on by nearly everyone, yet I am not here to tell you that there aren't a bunch of these firms who are in business to do exactly that. There are a number of companies whose LBO's fall into this category, yet I highly doubt that unless you know the particulars of any given deal, whether this was specifically going on at Bain. Certainly there are lawsuits every day for these type of deals, and in the end, you are right about one thing - the workers get screwed, especially when they are laid off or their pensions get liquidated.

Many of the big firms that buy other companies including Bain & Co, do also have quite a long list of companies that have been acquired and then sold off that end up much better off, e.g. Staples, Totes (after buying Isotoner), and Sealy are notable Bain success stories. A huge majority are not hostile takeovers. Unfortunately they have about a 50% success rate and in many failed cases, those investment companies lose the entire amount invested.

I take issue with the idea of how much of Bain's investments were aimed at "value redistribution". You don't know that. I never implied they were atruistic at all, or even "job creators" - they are looking for a profit, no doubt. Lots of political rhetoric on both sides.

If you would like to see an example of a tech version of this type of company. Check out Vista Equity Partners.

http://www.vistaequitypartners.com/

Also, lots of investment firms like Merrill Lynch, and Goldman Sachs, have private equity arms that do much the same thing.

It is easy to stand back and cherry pick the failures and then blame their failure/bankruptcy on Romney. I'm not so sure there is proof that Romney used predatory practices to invest in companies. Proof is never needed, though, just get the sheeple to keep repeating the drivel. Politics is perception, and as long as there is enough people willing to disparage a candidate for something, you can usually bring them down.
 
not looking to blame any particular failures on Romney; just attacking his claims that he was a "job creator," and the further claim that a businessman - who's primary purpose is maximizing profits at any cost - knows anything about creating jobs, or managing aggregate employment levels in an economy. That's something for economists to handle.

and also attacking, by extension, the absurd idea that if rich guys like Romney aren't allowed to take advantage of tax shelters that are unavailable to the average taxpayer so that they can pay a lower effective rate on their income, they're going to stop "innovating."

A.) the idea that they're innovating in the first place should be looked at more critically; and B.) the claim that if he had to pay an extra 5% or whatever on his income he'd quit and go live on a beach somewhere is absurd.

I think when some asshole tells us that if he has to pay a further $50,000 on his $5,000,000 income he's going to "stop innovating" society should say: "OK. DON'T LET THE SCREEN DOOR HIT YA ON THE WAY OUT."

we'd be better off.
 
Well, fantastically I don't disagree with you. Innovation is not related to the amount of taxes paid. Money, however, is always incentive to keep on innovating no matter what form it comes in.

Two things I will add. 1) Every candidate on both sides claims to be a "job creator". You aren't implying that any of these yahoo's (Republican or Democrat) wouldn't say or promise anything to get elected, would you? and 2) I think your example about tax shelters has less to do with what supporters are afraid of than you realize - they are more afraid that when they reach a certain point in their lives or business, they won't be allowed to be successful like these other rich guys due to restrictions. That is why they don't disparage his success. In the same way it is why many will defend all of that other crap.

. . . and personally I don't blame them. :*)


Also . . . for your last statement - who'd specifically be better off really? . . . and how soon would they recognize it?
 
KAWDUP said:
It's only become a joke to you and others that think like you. That is not even close to a majority. You will have to find me someone who does not have an agenda or axe to grind with the GOP to call it a "big joke" or that they "sound so dumb" before anyone would start agreeing with it. It is the same on the other side when Conservatives say the same things about Obama. None of it is true, just more rhetoric. Laugh away, but it doesn't represent jack shit - only your own ignorance.

cause saying "999" after a question on foreign policy is brilliant lol.
 
huge investments in freddie and fannie will be the headliner early tomorrow morning after he spent a good amount of time ragging on newt for being a "lobbyist" for them.
 
If the Capital Gains tax is 15%, how did Romney only pay 13.9% in 2010? This isn't going to shut people up and I think will lead to demands for the release of more years.
 
Mitt endeared himself even more to the middle class when asked about his almost $380,000 in speaking fee's he collected in 2010

he said...."it wasn't much "......lol
 
SLICK said:
Mitt endeared himself even more to the middle class when asked about his almost $380,000 in speaking fee's he collected in 2010

he said...."it wasn't much "......lol

agree.

and you know people in the media & on the right are going to spin criticism of his income as "jealousy" like they did when OWS criticized outright fraud on Wall Street. it wasn't that they had a legit complaint... they were "just jealous" of Wall Street success.

It's not jealousy... people have never had a problem with wealth per se; it's the wealth received through fraud, corruption, or personal connections & loopholes unavailable to everyone else.
 
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