To any atheists out there...

[Mitchrapp]

TinselWolverine[/color]]Monster you could just tell them that you practice the Yule but do it on the day of the Traditional American Yule Observation Day of December 25th.

And - that would also actually be true.

When the Romans established Christianity as the official religion of the empire in around 400, it was relatively simple to replace the pagan solstice celebrations like the Yule and the Saturnalian with a celebration of the birth of Jesus, who Christianity obviously holds as the Christ (that's kind of a Greek bastardization of the Hebrew word for the meaning of the "Messiah" but we won't get into that too much here).

Most of the "symbols" of Christmas that we observe have fuck all to do with Jesus but actually are tied to the ancient pagan celebrations.

And if they're Catholic, you could tell your in laws that Catholicism is nothing but a pagan and satanic polytheistic and idolotrous cult anyway that is direct violation of the first two commandments.

Or maybe you could try it MichChamp's way first.

This thread was alright and then the dumb-ass guy showed up. Way to ruin it..

 

[redandguilty]

In an effort to un-hijack this thread I'll throw in my 2 cents. An atheist or a non-religious agnostic celebrating Christmas or Easter as a holiday where the focus is family is better in my book than a religious person celebrating Christmas or Easter focusing on material things. I've been pushing my family to quit giving presents at Christmas or knock it back to just 1 gift. Everyone likes the idea, but nobody seems to want to break tradition.

yeah, that's kinda what it's boiled down to in my family: the holidays are the only time most of us get time off to see eachother. I never buy anyone presents, but I always bring the host a bottle of something nice & I send cards or letters.

I can understand people who admit they don't buy into the literal interpretation of the bible or 100% of the doctrine of whatever religion they adhere to, but still belong because it has a calming effect, it's about family, &/or it's more of a tradition for them. I can respect that.

What I don't respect are people that force their religion on others, through prayer in public school, prayer in public arenas, asserting their beliefs be taught as though they were fact. and these people are so brainwashed, they can't understand that it's THEM violating people's right to be free from their beliefs, not the other way around.

I see both sides there. Sometimes the effort to keep public spaces neutral feels like a banning of religion. There's a fine line between freedom of religion and freedom from religion when evangelicalism is such a big part of it to a lot of people.

 

[Mitchrapp]

yeah, that's kinda what it's boiled down to in my family: the holidays are the only time most of us get time off to see eachother. I never buy anyone presents, but I always bring the host a bottle of something nice & I send cards or letters.

I can understand people who admit they don't buy into the literal interpretation of the bible or 100% of the doctrine of whatever religion they adhere to, but still belong because it has a calming effect, it's about family, &/or it's more of a tradition for them. I can respect that.

What I don't respect are people that force their religion on others, through prayer in public school, prayer in public arenas, asserting their beliefs be taught as though they were fact. and these people are so brainwashed, they can't understand that it's THEM violating people's right to be free from their beliefs, not the other way around.

I see both sides there. Sometimes the effort to keep public spaces neutral feels like a banning of religion. There's a fine line between freedom of religion and freedom from religion when evangelicalism is such a big part of it to a lot of people.

You bring up a good point. Its not just about Ms. Teacher teaching Johnny about the 10 commandments but now-a-days kids can't even say the word God in school. Schools don't even have Pledge of Allegiance because it has that word in it. When did God become a dirty word? An employee at a store says Merry Christmas, they're gone. It's all about happy holidays. Lol.

 

[redandguilty]

Mitch[/color]]
[quote="Red and Guilty":s39rgi4p]

I see both sides there. Sometimes the effort to keep public spaces neutral feels like a banning of religion. There's a fine line between freedom of religion and freedom from religion when evangelicalism is such a big part of it to a lot of people.

You bring up a good point. Its not just about Ms. Teacher teaching Johnny about the 10 commandments but now-a-days kids can't even say the word God in school. Schools don't even have Pledge of Allegiance because it has that word in it. When did God become a dirty word? An employee at a store says Merry Christmas, they're gone. It's all about happy holidays. Lol.[/quote:s39rgi4p]

I don't think it's all as banned as that. Merry Christmas has made a comeback, at least here. I don't know about elsewhere, but I was wished a Merry Christmas at a bunch of places this year.

Anyone remember the old Sesame Street Christmas Special were someone wishes Mr. Hooper a Merry Christmas and he explains that's he's Jewish, so they wish Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to each other? I could have the details wrong, the memory is fuzzy.

 

[Mitchrapp]

[quote="Mitch":4x32wsft]

You bring up a good point. Its not just about Ms. Teacher teaching Johnny about the 10 commandments but now-a-days kids can't even say the word God in school. Schools don't even have Pledge of Allegiance because it has that word in it. When did God become a dirty word? An employee at a store says Merry Christmas, they're gone. It's all about happy holidays. Lol.

I don't think it's all as banned as that. Merry Christmas has made a comeback, at least here. I don't know about elsewhere, but I was wished a Merry Christmas at a bunch of places this year.

Anyone remember the old Sesame Street Christmas Special were someone wishes Mr. Hooper a Merry Christmas and he explains that's he's Jewish, so they wish Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to each other? I could have the details wrong, the memory is fuzzy. [/quote:4x32wsft]

I do too but I always get a happy holiday back. Hmm, I do remember that Sesame Street special. In the 70's if its the one I'm thinking of?

 

[redandguilty]

I haven't found the exchange I was thinking of, but there's a "Happy Hanukka" from a UofM Glee Club alum around 3:20.

[flash=350,287:ycwzh714]http://www.youtube.com/v/m8t14JdGaG4&hl=en&fs=1[/flash:ycwzh714]
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[tinselwolverine]

Mitch[/color]]
[quote="TinselWolverine":kccmls2g]Monster you could just tell them that you practice the Yule but do it on the day of the Traditional American Yule Observation Day of December 25th.

And - that would also actually be true.

When the Romans established Christianity as the official religion of the empire in around 400, it was relatively simple to replace the pagan solstice celebrations like the Yule and the Saturnalian with a celebration of the birth of Jesus, who Christianity obviously holds as the Christ (that's kind of a Greek bastardization of the Hebrew word for the meaning of the "Messiah" but we won't get into that too much here).

Most of the "symbols" of Christmas that we observe have fuck all to do with Jesus but actually are tied to the ancient pagan celebrations.

And if they're Catholic, you could tell your in laws that Catholicism is nothing but a pagan and satanic polytheistic and idolotrous cult anyway that is direct violation of the first two commandments.

Or maybe you could try it MichChamp's way first.

This thread was alright and then the dumb-ass guy showed up. Way to ruin it..[/quote:kccmls2g]

Stuff is this easily ruined for you?

Your life must suck.

 

[Mitchrapp]

TinselWolverine[/color]]
[quote="Mitch":48m3icnf]

This thread was alright and then the dumb-ass guy showed up. Way to ruin it..

Stuff is this easily ruined for you?

Your life must suck.[/quote:48m3icnf]

Just that we were having a pleasant conversation and then bam..

Go back to hatin'

 

[tinselwolverine]

After you, please...

 

[Mitchrapp]

I haven't found the exchange I was thinking of, but there's a "Happy Hanukka" from a UofM Glee Club alum around 3:20.

[flash=350,287:z8imis4b]http://www.youtube.com/v/m8t14JdGaG4&hl=en&fs=1[/flash:z8imis4b]
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Thanks for the link. Big bird seemed smaller than I remember ;-).

 

[Michchamp]

[quote="Mitch":8hd3ouih]

You bring up a good point. Its not just about Ms. Teacher teaching Johnny about the 10 commandments but now-a-days kids can't even say the word God in school. Schools don't even have Pledge of Allegiance because it has that word in it. When did God become a dirty word? An employee at a store says Merry Christmas, they're gone. It's all about happy holidays. Lol.

I don't think it's all as banned as that. Merry Christmas has made a comeback, at least here. I don't know about elsewhere, but I was wished a Merry Christmas at a bunch of places this year.

Anyone remember the old Sesame Street Christmas Special were someone wishes Mr. Hooper a Merry Christmas and he explains that's he's Jewish, so they wish Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to each other? I could have the details wrong, the memory is fuzzy. [/quote:8hd3ouih]

he's just playing the victim. That's one way bigots try to advance their agenda. complain about some absurd perceived slight, and use it to rile up opposition.

saying the word "god" is NOT banned in school, nor is the pledge of allegiance. Some atheist activists have sued to get the word "under god" removed from the pledge; and they do have a point: since it's pretty clearly unconstitutional. it wasn't even in the original pledge, or on our currency, only added much later as state propaganda to rile up christians against the atheist USSR. Religions may even be studied at public schools; they are in college, and they could be part of a high school curriculum. they can't study one religion exclusively, nor can they advocate one religious belief over another though.

what IS banned is putting forth one religious doctrine over another, for example, hosting a public "prayer" at a football game, and then playing the victim when an atheist, or a muslim, or a jew complains that it's CORRECTLY out of place at a public school event.

a TRUE CHRISTIAN would say, "Hey guys, I understand that our schools are funded by the state, and the state can't favor an establishment of religion, so this is improper. let's go meet and pray on our own time. We are totally free to do that, and then we don't run the risk of making anyone of a different faith, or no faith, feel uncomfortable and excluded. Let's not be huge assholes about this."

 

[Mitchrapp]

Sorry average guys but my nieces and nephews schools have banned the Pledge of Allegiance. Meaning, its not around any longer. It might have started with not saying "under God" but it gone. And there have been instances across the country of kids being banned for saying a prayer before lunch. So he was around other kids so he can't say Grace?

I guess America the Beautiful will get banned as well from places. It's got that word, lol.

 

[redandguilty]

I don't think it's all as banned as that. Merry Christmas has made a comeback, at least here. I don't know about elsewhere, but I was wished a Merry Christmas at a bunch of places this year.

Anyone remember the old Sesame Street Christmas Special were someone wishes Mr. Hooper a Merry Christmas and he explains that's he's Jewish, so they wish Merry Christmas and Happy Hanukkah to each other? I could have the details wrong, the memory is fuzzy.

he's just playing the victim. That's one way bigots try to advance their agenda. complain about some absurd perceived slight, and use it to rile up opposition.

saying the word "god" is NOT banned in school, nor is the pledge of allegiance. Some atheist activists have sued to get the word "under god" removed from the pledge; and they do have a point: since it's pretty clearly unconstitutional. it wasn't even in the original pledge, or on our currency, only added much later as state propaganda to rile up christians against the atheist USSR. Religions may even be studied at public schools; they are in college, and they could be part of a high school curriculum. they can't study one religion exclusively, nor can they advocate one religious belief over another though.

what IS banned is putting forth one religious doctrine over another, for example, hosting a public "prayer" at a football game, and then playing the victim when an atheist, or a muslim, or a jew complains that it's CORRECTLY out of place at a public school event.

a TRUE CHRISTIAN would say, "Hey guys, I understand that our schools are funded by the state, and the state can't favor an establishment of religion, so this is improper. let's go meet and pray on our own time. We are totally free to do that, and then we don't run the risk of making anyone of a different faith, or no faith, feel uncomfortable and excluded. Let's not be huge assholes about this."

I think that goes too far, but not by much. I'm ok with seeing a difference between state accommodation of religious practice and establishment of it. Is the school in Dearborn that holds football practice at night during Ramadan a public school?

 

[Michchamp]

<Catholic walks into a message board thread>
Hi atheists, how's it going?
<Sees the religion drives war argument starting>
Goodnight everybody!

I agree with you; religion isn't the sole cause of war. Wars exist with or without religion.

Take for example our "war on terror," and the invasion of Iraq. Religion is just one of many propaganda tools war advocates use to promote it. Even as our government "officially" tried to de-emphasize the religious nature of the conflict, there is a strong under-current in everything we see that makes clear the "us" versus "them" nature of religion. Especially in the absurd claims that muslims want to force everyone to submit to sharia law. The message is clear.

But I don't think you can dismiss the link between religion and war altogether. religion is a particularly useful and insidious tool, since it's inherently based on faith and superstition, religious people are particularly easy to goad into fighting someone else.

In the absence of religions, there would still be wars... they just wouldn't be as easy to start.

 

[redandguilty]

http://espn.go.com/high-school/story/_/id/5467167/mich-school-practices-11-pm-4-am/
according to this, it's public
http://www.trulia.com/schools/MI-Dearborn/Fordson_High_School/

I don't see this as an establishment of state religion.

 

[Michchamp]

Mitch[/color]]Sorry average guys but my nieces and nephews schools have banned the Pledge of Allegiance. Meaning, its not around any longer. It might have started with not saying "under God" but it gone. And there have been instances across the country of kids being banned for saying a prayer before lunch. So he was around other kids so he can't say Grace?

I guess America the Beautiful will get banned as well from places. It's got that word, lol.

I call bullshit on all this. You're making it up.

I WISH it was true, because it would show an emphasis on the constitution, not on religious kookiness.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Mitch[/color]]Sorry average guys but my nieces and nephews schools have banned the Pledge of Allegiance. Meaning, its not around any longer. It might have started with not saying "under God" but it gone. And there have been instances across the country of kids being banned for saying a prayer before lunch. So he was around other kids so he can't say Grace?

I guess America the Beautiful will get banned as well from places. It's got that word, lol.

I call bullshit on all this. You're making it up.

I WISH it was true, because it would show an emphasis on the constitution, not on religious kookiness.

You need to read more.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Just one quick Google and the first link:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/08/progressive-group-in-mass-calls-for-pledge-ban-citing-no-educational-value/

 

[redandguilty]

<Catholic walks into a message board thread>
Hi atheists, how's it going?
<Sees the religion drives war argument starting>
Goodnight everybody!

I agree with you; religion isn't the sole cause of war. Wars exist with or without religion.

Take for example our "war on terror," and the invasion of Iraq. Religion is just one of many propaganda tools war advocates use to promote it. Even as our government "officially" tried to de-emphasize the religious nature of the conflict, there is a strong under-current in everything we see that makes clear the "us" versus "them" nature of religion. Especially in the absurd claims that muslims want to force everyone to submit to sharia law. The message is clear.

But I don't think you can dismiss the link between religion and war altogether. religion is a particularly useful and insidious tool, since it's inherently based on faith and superstition, religious people are particularly easy to goad into fighting someone else.

In the absence of religions, there would still be wars... they just wouldn't be as easy to start.

I don't dismiss it. The correlation exists because there is (and was) correlation between religion and governing power. Take a religion like Buddhism where there's no governing power associated, and you get no wars. Tie religion to a government, and wars become Holy Wars.

 

[Mitchrapp]

And this from 2002:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/27/us/jud....ted=a ll&src=pm