Zimmerman To Be Charged

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

you know that may be true, but those things didn't occur in a vacuum.

stalking a kid while carrying a gun certainly makes the later shooting look less like self-defense or accidental.

There's also a difference between a guy who runs to grab his gun to go chase down someone they find suspicious and a guy who carries a gun every day who happened to be armed when he confronted someone he found suspicious. From the information we know of, it seems Zimmerman was guy #2 not guy #1.

Saying, "these little punks always get away", then going to grab your gun is a completely different story. Going out of your way to grab a gun implies intent. Being armed, like always, doesn't imply anything IMO.

I think Zimmerman was "that" neighbor that every neighborhood has who is snoopy, likes to report everything and complains when you leave your trash bin out 1 day too long - which is against the association rules. I think what he did was outside of the average, but not rare enough where you can't probably name some neighbor who, under some circumstances, might act similarly.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I'm not trolling at all...None of the actions Zimmerman took up until the point of confronting Treyvon put Treyvon in any risk.

Well, I think you are trolling but I don't care.

A series of foolhardy behaviors I think should be as legitimate as a single one with regard to negligence, and I really don't believe you don't see that the disregarding of the advisement of the police and following Trayvon and ultimately ending up in a confrontation with Trayvon - knowing that one was disregarding the advisement of the police while carrying a concealed lethal weapon - directly resulted in Trayvon's unecessary death.

It's obviously negligent; again, I'm sure you know it. Sometimes you're worse than Chico...

That said...

The prosecutor chose not to go that route, so we'll never know.

One thing for certain - pursuing a charge of criminal negligence or reckless endangerment - lesser charges than the prosecution sought - could not have possibly resulted in any more of an unsatisfactory result for the people of the State of Florida.

 

[mhughes0021]

Aaron Hernandez new defense - As set by precendent in the Zimmerman case you are now allowed to shoot whoever you want.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

Well, I think you are trolling but I don't care.

A series of foolhardy behaviors I think should be as legitimate as a single one with regard to negligence, and I really don't believe you don't see that the disregarding of the advisement of the police and following Trayvon and ultimately ending up in a confrontation with Trayvon - knowing that one was disregarding the advisement of the police while carrying a concealed lethal weapon - directly resulted in Trayvon's unecessary death.

It's obviously negligent; again, I'm sure you know it. Sometimes you're worse than Chico...

That said...

The prosecutor chose not to go that route, so we'll never know.

One thing for certain - pursuing a charge of criminal negligence or reckless endangerment - lesser charges than the prosecution sought - could not have possibly resulted in any more of an unsatisfactory result for the people of the State of Florida.

I'm really not trolling. I do see what you're trying to say, I just think it's not an example of an action that caused the death of someone; which would qualify as negligence.

A dispatcher is not the police. If you're in your house hiding in the bedroom while someone is breaking into your house and the dispatcher tells you to stay there, you're under no obligation to do so and if you go downstairs and kill the crap out of some robber - the fact you ignored dispatch is irrelevant.

In fact, in Texas - a guy saw a couple of guys breaking into his neighbor's home and told the dispatcher if police didn't arrive soon he'd go take care of it. And despite the dispatcher telling him not to, he ran over there with his gun and shot the guys to death. He was also cleared of any wrong doing. Even worse, one of the guys was shot while running away.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Horn_shooting_controversy

I still maintain that for it to be considered negligence, there has to be some action or accident that directly puts the other person at risk; who then ends up dying. Carrying a gun, following someone or ignoring dispatch orders would not qualify. If the prosecutors went that way, I suspect that there would be a lot of people upset that a murder charge was not sought - especially if he was found guilty.

 

[Diggler Cometh]

I don't think anyone can say for sure that Zimmerman is guilty of anything. No one knows what might have happened on that day. As far as "in the wrong" how do we know? Maybe Zimmerman was in danger and feared for his life. To say it was murder based on here say is being short sighted.

Shut up you gun loving redneck.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Shut up you gun loving redneck.

Rather than you, a liberal whack job.

 

[Diggler Cometh]

Rather than you, a liberal whack job.

...

/s

 

[TheVictors]

Well, we live in Denver's Black side -- a few organized protests at nearby parks and a general opinion against the verdict... Guess this arrogant Michigan Alum fits in with the Blue collar Park Hill vibe.

 

[Sbee]

I think you need to remember the role of a neighborhood watchman. His job is to observe and report to the authorities, not to engage a criminal or stalk someone you consider suspicious. Real policemen are trained and screened for these situations. You dont have loose cannons out here so you avoid these situations

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Diggler Cometh]

I think you need to remember the role of a neighborhood watchman. His job is to observe and report to the authorities, not to engage a criminal or stalk someone you consider suspicious. Real policemen are trained and screened for these situations. You dont have loose cannons out here so you avoid these situations

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Top flight

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MKpVRalJaZE&desktop_uri=/watch?v=MKpVRalJaZE

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

I think you need to remember the role of a neighborhood watchman. His job is to observe and report to the authorities, not to engage a criminal or stalk someone you consider suspicious. Real policemen are trained and screened for these situations. You dont have loose cannons out here so you avoid these situations

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

I also think you need to realize that the neighborhood watch is a set of guidelines and suggestions. I really don't think his neighborhood watch status had a lot to do with his decision to follow Treyvon. I think watch or no watch he was going to do that, that night. You're not going to avoid the loose cannons by not letting them join the neighborhood watch.

 

[tigersofjustice]

If Treyvon has wrestled the gun away from Zimmerman and shot him, how many of the Zimmerman defenders would think Treyvon was justified?

I was talking with someone today and pointed this out. If the shoe were on the other foot, based on the law as it is in Florida and the decision in this case, Martin would have been justified in shooting and killing Zimmerman. If Martin was carrying a weapon, the end result would have been either person would be justified in killing the other. It's a poorly articulated statute.

 

[tigersofjustice]

And this isn't a Florida thing, he wouldn't have been found guilty anywhere.

That is definitely wrong. There are many jurisdictions where he would have lost the right to kill by starting the confrontation.

 

[tigersofjustice]

And from that point - we don't know what happens. If Zimmerman attacks Treyvon, he's at least guilty of manslaughter. If Treyvon attacks Zimmerman because he's some overly protective neighborhood watchman following him, then Treyvon is at fault and Zimmerman had every right to use his firearm. If it happened as Zimmerman said, Treyvon could have walked away and he would still be alive today - and that is why your case for criminal negligence just doesn't hold up. None of the actions Zimmerman took up until the point of confronting Treyvon put Treyvon in any risk.

The way the statute reads, it really doesn't matter who attacked who, either would have a right to kill the other if they reasonably believed their life was in danger.

 

[tigersofjustice]

Ultimately I think this case rubs so many people the wrong way because most, myself included, feel that you should not have the right to kill somebody after you yourself created the situation that lead to fearing for your life.

There needs to be at least some criminality in a situation like this, it doesn't have to be a high level of murder, but there must be a carve out that prevents this kind of behavior with a Felony conviction.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

The way the statute reads, it really doesn't matter who attacked who, either would have a right to kill the other if they reasonably believed their life was in danger.

Sure it matters. That's what the prosecution tried to argue the entire time - that Zimmerman chased down Treyvon and started the fight. You can't punch a guy on the street, wait for him to punch you back and then shoot them. The fact is, the only wounds on Treyvon where the gunshot wounds. Zimmerman was the one that looked like he was actually attacked.

 

[Sbee]

Sure it matters. That's what the prosecution tried to argue the entire time - that Zimmerman chased down Treyvon and started the fight. You can't punch a guy on the street, wait for him to punch you back and then shoot them. The fact is, the only wounds on Treyvon where the gunshot wounds. Zimmerman was the one that looked like he was actually attacked.

an unarmed 17 year old gets shot and he wasn't breaking any laws, that's the tragedy here.

 

[redandguilty]

I think most people with strong one-sided opinions one way or the other are making assumptions they can't prove. I have my suspicions, but if there was a secret video of the whole thing out there and I had a chance to bet the farm, I wouldn't.

 

[tigersofjustice]

Sure it matters. That's what the prosecution tried to argue the entire time - that Zimmerman chased down Treyvon and started the fight. You can't punch a guy on the street, wait for him to punch you back and then shoot them. The fact is, the only wounds on Treyvon where the gunshot wounds. Zimmerman was the one that looked like he was actually attacked.

No it doesn't, not in practical reality.

Florida's aggressor statute:

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

In particular, pay attention to 2(a) which basically says, "well if you started it, but now you still think you're going to die and can't retreat, shoot to kill!"

Under that subsection an initial attacker can absolutely use deadly force. Also notice that section 1 only applies to forcible FELONIES. Simple battery is not a felony.

As a result, your gentleman who goes up and punches a guy absolutely CAN use deadly force if he reasonably believes his life is threatened in Florida.

 

[MAIZEandBLUE09]

an unarmed 17 year old gets shot and he wasn't breaking any laws, that's the tragedy here.

How do you know he wasn't breaking any laws? It's very possible that he assaulted a man which had a big part in his death. That's breaking a law. But again, it's possible he didn't. I just have a huge problem with either side saying conclusively 1 thing or another - as you just did. Treyvon could be a criminal here who assaulted Zimmerman. Zimmerman's story could, in fact, be true. Making him less of an innocent "kid" than you're suggesting.