Bad day for AA

[zyxt9]

race should never be asked on a college application. pure and simple, the solution to the "problem" of race is to remove it from the equation altogether.

and don't cry me a river about how the education available to students is different. if you are not involved in the public school system, then you might believe that is the reason why some are not getting the necessary grades. when you are involved in the public school system, you know that is NOT the reason. I'm sure you will pull up all types of fabulous slanted stats to back your argument, but those will just be skewed stats like always. go into those schools. notice their smart boards? find out how long they have had them. notice the lack of smart boards, books, and all other materials at the schools where the "privileged" kids attend? or if they have some of those, like a smart board, when did they receive theirs? check out the internet connection speeds while your at it. the so called lack of attention to the underachieving schools is a complete brainwashing attempt. furthermore, the entire education system is a wreck, not just where the under-privileged children attend. bus the kids all you want, chances are you are actually sending them to schools that have LESS materials, not more.

removing race from the equation will be far more effective as it will open some eyes that they need to actually achieve in order to succeed. giving something to try and meet a quota just perpetuates the division by race.

 

[zyxt9]

furthermore, if someone is NOT selected to an elite school due to their grades but is then allowed admission due to some extraneous thing like race, then they are more likely being setup to fail, which further hurts the race by having a higher drop out rate. not to mention the grants/scholies/whatever are less likely to be given to an underachieving student, meaning they likely have to take out a loan. that loan is going to keep them back for decades, especially if they dropped out.

far better for ANY student with lesser means to attend a less expensive school for their first two years at a minimum. then prove through their grades that they deserved to be in the elite school and transfer in. better to do that than be given admission as a freshman to the elite school and end up dropping out. if they cannot hack the lesser school, how does anyone think they could have hacked the elite one? if they ace the lesser school, then they deserve to be admitted into the elite and will then be more likely to get grants/scholies/etc.

 

[TheVictors]

There's affirmative action for people with small dicks? I didn't realize that was an underrepresented minority.

LMAO!

Nice one.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'm sure you will pull up all types of fabulous slanted stats to back your argument, but those will just be skewed stats like always.

Preemptively rejecting the validity of stats before they're given or the sources known? That's not rational.

 

[Gulo Blue]

There's affirmative action for people with small dicks? I didn't realize that was an underrepresented minority.

Well, they're underrepresented at Michigan.

 

[zyxt9]

Preemptively rejecting the validity of stats before they're given or the sources known? That's not rational.

I've seen the stats before, used to somehow justify why some schools with high drop out rates deserved to have all the necessary materials and latest technology years before others with students who perform at or above normal levels. I have yet to see any evidence that trying to slant things to their favor has had any effect. This has been going on for over 10 years, there should be some evidence that the grades, scores, and graduation rates improved and thereby warranted the unbalanced approach that was taken. The evidence does not support the hypothesis that the problem lies with the teachers, schools, materials, or other similar factors. That leaves factors that people do not want to bring up, such as parenting, societal pressure to NOT succeed, and other areas that schools and teachers have little or no possible chance of changing.

I'm not saying do not spend extra money in those regions. I am saying that it is not a good investment to only put it toward making sure those students have the proper materials. They need the materials, obviously...but that should also be said for the students of privilege, should it not? The real challenge lies in applying extra money into the neighborhood in a way that changes the prevalent mindset that schools are the "bad guys" and anyone who does well is a traitor to their neighborhood, proper parenting, fighting to rid the streets of gangs and drugs not just with guns and police, but with members of the neighborhood taking action and not tolerating the belligerent and anti-establishment mindset that is currently in control.

Did you know that there has been a spike in the number of kids from poor neighborhoods being home schooled? Why? Because some are doing their best to do what I mentioned above. Those parents need help. They need a solid support group and ways to provide positive influences in their children's lives. They need their neighborhoods cleaned up from those who only wish to drive kids into non-productive lifestyles.

Take all the AA money and put it into those efforts and you might actually make a change. Since AA has been around, things have not improved. Keep doing the same non-effective thing, spending countless dollars in the process...or change behavior and strive to improve lives across the board? There has to be a shift in the culture if there is going to be any hope of making a positive change. It has to come from within. Now that movement can be influenced by money, organizations, and other elements providing the right push in the right spots...and school is part of that obviously...but until there is a shift in the culture, there won't be anything all the money in the world will be capable of fixing.

This applies to all races. The country-folk/rednecks/hillbillies, Hispanics, Asians, and other minority groups with similar behaviors and societal challenges that push to keep them down or "in their place" are no less important to try and help...but that isn't very AA or PC of me I guess, trying to help all who are underprivileged is somehow wrong based on how many posters present their info, and yes...their skewed stats that highlight their agenda while discounting others.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Take all the AA money and put it into those efforts and you might actually make a change.

What is AA money? If AA gets you into a school, you still need to come up with the money or loans or scholarships.

 

[Michchamp]

What is AA money? If AA gets you into a school, you still need to come up with the money or loans or scholarships.

I think he's referring to AA based financial aid, but I'm not sure if they even offer that, or if it differs from the usual need-based financial aid everyone gets.

in these disputes, people always tend to throw around arguments based on their own understanding of the facts.

 

[zyxt9]

What is AA money? If AA gets you into a school, you still need to come up with the money or loans or scholarships.

How much money has been spent pushing the AA agenda? Through the political channels, the educating of the public, businesses, schools, etc.

It served a purpose in the beginning. It opened many people's eyes and was a worthwhile investment. Today, however, it is less and less beneficial. It is time to move to another front in the battle. Make AA unnecessary by getting grades and test scores that are superior to those who "took der degree" as you so eloquently put it. It is time to go out and earn the right to go to the school you desire, and if you don't get in on the first try then go to a community college or lesser school and earn the right to transfer in at a later time. If it is really that important to you as an individual, then it is up to you to make it happen. If you cannot manage to do that, then it is time to readjust and define a different future for yourself.

The barriers that used to be in place before AA are not really there any longer. That should never have resulted in the entitlement society that exists today. The barriers being broken should never have resulted in the belief that equality will just happen because of some governmental rule or law. We are past all of that now, so now it is time to make your life what you want it to be and if that fails then pick yourself up and try something else or go back after your original goal with a more informed mindset. Even billionaires have had dreams dashed and been forced to go down different paths than they originally desired. There are enough stories of people who have come from the bottom and worked their way to the top that people should be able to recognize it is something anyone is capable of doing if they put their mind to it.

 

[zyxt9]

I think he's referring to AA based financial aid, but I'm not sure if they even offer that, or if it differs from the usual need-based financial aid everyone gets.

in these disputes, people always tend to throw around arguments based on their own understanding of the facts.

And when things like AA get created, there are always people who stop pushing themselves and believe they are just automatically entitled to their objective, despite their inability to do the work required.

 

[Spartanmack]

LMAO!

Nice one.

Thanks. I figured of all people, you'd be a good sport about it. No offense meant - it was just impossible to resist.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It served a purpose in the beginning. It opened many people's eyes and was a worthwhile investment. Today, however, it is less and less beneficial. It is time to move to another front in the battle.

Why do you believe these things (how do you evaluate the worth of the investment to know it was worth something in the past and isn't anymore)? And why can't the battle front move before AA is cut off?

 

[Gulo Blue]

And when things like AA get created, there are always people who stop pushing themselves and believe they are just automatically entitled to their objective, despite their inability to do the work required.

That quite a statement. Is there any evidence to support it?

 

[Spartanmack]

That quite a statement. Is there any evidence to support it?

Everywhere from urban ghettos to rural poor areas. Policies like welfare, AA, etc have done nothing to lift people out of poverty or other ills they're designed to fix - rather they contribute to perpetuating the cycle. Zyxt9 is spot on that the problem starts at home and within the community. I would add that some of those kids are being home schooled because it's simply not safe to go to public school - and in areas like the south and west side of Chicago, there isn't even safe passage TO or FROM school. But you dare not mention family values or personal responsibility despite the fact that literally mountains of evidence show that home life (specifically, children in 2 parent households with at least 1 parent working) is a better predictor of academic success than wealth/poverty. But you're not allowed to say that because if you promote those ideals, you're a bigot who hates minorities and single moms and wants to watch them starve, make sure their kids either end up in prison or at best, cleaning your toilets, etc, etc.

 

[Spartanmack]

Well, they're underrepresented at Michigan.

You seem pretty sure of that. Gulo, are you one of those "lookers"?

 

[Gulo Blue]

You seem pretty sure of that. Gulo, are you one of those "lookers"?

I don't even know what a "looker" is; must be a Spartan thing.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Everywhere from urban ghettos to rural poor areas. Policies like welfare, AA, etc have done nothing to lift people out of poverty or other ills they're designed to fix - rather they contribute to perpetuating the cycle. Zyxt9 is spot on that the problem starts at home and within the community. I would add that some of those kids are being home schooled because it's simply not safe to go to public school - and in areas like the south and west side of Chicago, there isn't even safe passage TO or FROM school. But you dare not mention family values or personal responsibility despite the fact that literally mountains of evidence show that home life (specifically, children in 2 parent households with at least 1 parent working) is a better predictor of academic success than wealth/poverty. But you're not allowed to say that because if you promote those ideals, you're a bigot who hates minorities and single moms and wants to watch them starve, make sure their kids either end up in prison or at best, cleaning your toilets, etc, etc.

I asked for evidence and you painted a picture. What I don't see in it is anything that hints at a solution. Like I keep saying, if you can preserve diversity and ensure equal opportunity, I'll be happy. And I'd prefer to do it through non-AA methods. But doing nothing is unacceptable. AA is a negative thing, but doing nothing is far worse.

 

[Michchamp]

I asked for evidence and you painted a picture. What I don't see in it is anything that hints at a solution. Like I keep saying, if you can preserve diversity and ensure equal opportunity, I'll be happy. And I'd prefer to do it through non-AA methods. But doing nothing is unacceptable. AA is a negative thing, but doing nothing is far worse.

He also has cause and effect backward here. Because he's stupid. And racist.

 

[zyxt9]

I asked for evidence and you painted a picture. What I don't see in it is anything that hints at a solution. Like I keep saying, if you can preserve diversity and ensure equal opportunity, I'll be happy. And I'd prefer to do it through non-AA methods. But doing nothing is unacceptable. AA is a negative thing, but doing nothing is far worse.

Absolutely agree that AA is better than doing nothing, and Sparty isn't suggesting that either. And they don't have to cut off AA completely before changing direction, but it can be reduced while other factors are worked on harder.

I'm going to be blasted for this, but look at the history of unions. At first they were a vital necessity and made prevalent many adverse conditions and situations that were not fair. Today the government is taking a bigger role in areas such as safety and wage earnings and hours in work week. Are unions still necessary? on the one hand it would have been more difficult back then to create unions if Today's regulations existed, but if unions disappear then business would potentially revert back by paying off the government overseers.

AA similarly should not be eliminated, but the challenges back then are not there today in the sense that most businesses don't care about race as much as performance and the bottom line. They care less who is doing the job and more about the bottom line. Society has mostly moved beyond the racial barriers that existed last century.

Today's world is more about having the best person for the job. Finance departments have such a stranglehold on companies that management is stupid if they try to create the good ol' boy networks of yesteryear. Do those still exist, yes... but they are far more vulnerable at least in the entry and mid-management levels. Companies that try maintaining that culture will die faster for not having better performers instead.

I already covered how forcing a low income person into elite schools without enough grant or other help is a negative. People cannot afford the loans today. That isn't a problem AA can solve. Redirect those AA funds even into more grants and scholarships would be better use of the money as student loans are bankrupting the working class. Put more focus on changing cultural mindsets now, the way they changed mindsets on admissions and hirings is far more valuable.

I'm not trying to keep anyone down in their current state. I'm trying to push people to get up and force change in their neighborhood. Get the gangs out for starters, don't give them shelter and protection. That has to come from the community standing up and not taking it any more. For the redneck it means breaking their communal repetitive as well, same for hillbillies. Stop making moonshine and put those talents into making other things. So many communities have elements that perpetuate their conditions, break that cycle and you win... allow it to continue unchecked and you are just wasting resources.

The AQ in Iraq using IEDs didn't change until the community put an end to it. Are there still issues, of course! There will always be the next issue to overcome, but you cannot even discover what that issue is until you overcome the perpetuation of the current situation. Perhaps one day AA won't be even a memory, but that cannot happen until we set people up for success instead of perpetuating the current status quo.

There are signs that suggest things are shifting in the right direction. More businesses are starting up, people are taking advantage of those types of assistance and changing their situation. Obviously not all will succeed, but the attempt is what is so important. Give them the resources, from financial to learning (doesn't mean a UM degree, it could be vocational classes) that lead to success. Get the kids working in those locations, developing skill sets to achieve more. AA isn't a requirement in this as the needs are not racially motivated. They are income and educationally motivated. Win those types of battles and AA is even less necessary.

 

[zyxt9]

He also has cause and effect backward here. Because he's stupid. And racist.

So now it is racist to try getting communities to improve themselves and overcome challenges instead of perpetuating the entitlement mindset and status quo. Better to keep them behaving the same as always, hands out awaiting the government support that does nothing to change the current cycle. Trying to get more beneficial assistance instead of the same minimally effective assistance that just perpetuates eating and reproduction as opposed to pushing them to change their lifestyle is racist. All because what you hear is that sparty and I have an issue blacks, which is not what is being suggested, implied, or true in any manner.

Just because we believe there is a need for a shift in cultural mindsets for there to be effective change does not equate to racism. The need for better parenting and getting underprivileged to better themselves is not racism, for those are specific to only one race, the Human race. You on the other hand continue making it a black race issue with zero comprehension how every race has communities needing to change their mindset, because your vision is too narrow when looking at the problems shared by all races.