Bad day for AA

[Spartanmack]

Man, it was awful! 12% of the population was getting 6.4% of the spots in the class! They took uuuurrr degreez!!

Glad it's down to 4.6%. Makes me want to post threads celebrating democracy! I know government is a continuous thing and courts make rulings all the time, but this one was about democracy.

Is this what you were referring to when you said that accusing opponents of AA of being racist wasn't the best you could come up with? Discrimination is OK if it only displaces almost 500 better qualified applicants. That's so much better. Except that a lot of those 500 kids probably come from underpriveleged families and underfunded, poorer school districts. It's not like everyone that gets screwed by AA is a rich white kid that's going to work for his daddy's company and be just fine anyway.

 

[Spartanmack]

Yeah... but good luck with that. the racists will concede that point as long as they get AA struck down. then when it comes to fixing the inequality in educational spending & social spending between white and black areas, you'll see their true colors: "Sorry, there's no money extra money for education. WHOA... raise my tax dollars and spend on "those people???" You want to bus them WHERE???"



and of course, these debates always get clouded by all the hyperbole from the blowhards & bigots on the Right as far as who benefits, how, how it's determined, etc. and didn't we figure it came down to like a few dozen applicants or a hundred applicants at each University that might be affected? A drop in the bucket relative to the pool. And these were marginal applicants to begin with. Yet from talking to idiots like spartanwack, you'd think Michigan's incoming class was 90% black.

No, if I recall you said it was only a handful so I looked at the data and calculated that it would be at least several hundred then I believe, you later tried to trivialize it again by calling it a few dozen. You are Nancy Pelosi dumb.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Is this what you were referring to when you said that accusing opponents of AA of being racist wasn't the best you could come up with? Discrimination is OK if it only displaces 150-200 qualified applicants. That's so much better.

No, that's not what I was referring to. Calling AA opponents racist isn't the best argument and it's not even true much of the time. There are perfectly good reasons to be against AA and a better argument is had when those reasons are acknowledged alongside the goals of AA and a discussion weighing ideological fairness against the practical limitations of combating bias and inequality using other methods.

But most AA opponents don't go starting threads like this. People that are against it purely for ideological reasons know there's a dark side to it; it comes at the cost of reducing the already underrepresented minority population. When the real-world practical result of a law is that it reduces the representation of a minority population, it is not a good day for democracy, even if a vote happened to be a part of it. As corporations and high-earning people gain more political power over others, less access to higher education is definitely related to political voice.

 

[Gulo Blue]

To be clear on the better argument bit, the complete failure of all other methods to combat inequality means we should continue to use the flawed strategy of AA. That is a better argument.

 

[Gulo Blue]

No, if I recall you said it was only a handful so I looked at the data and calculated that it would be at least several hundred then I believe, you later tried to trivialize it again by calling it a few dozen. You are Nancy Pelosi dumb.

A drop from 6.4% to 4.6% would be 1.8% of a class of about 6200 students. That's 112 spots. Not that big a deal to the ~4000 white students, but it's huge to the ~250 black students.

...or are you talking about total enrollment to get to your "several hundred"? It doesn't matter. The point is it's a much bigger deal to the minority population.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Long-term it looks like other schools find ways to correct for bans against AA anyway. Will everybody be ok with it if the same thing is achieved through socio-economics and bonuses for under-represented school districts?

I am.

 

[Spartanmack]

To be clear on the better argument bit, the complete failure of all other methods to combat inequality means we should continue to use the flawed strategy of AA. That is a better argument.

It may be better than calling me a racist, but it's still weak. Discrimination is discrimination. Period. And like the numbers show, it's not a small number of non-minority students that are affected by this flawed strategy.

Further, to some degree, AA is actually a disincentive for minority students to better themselves. It's another of many disservices, however well-intentioned, society does to disadvantaged minorities. We are continuously lower the standards for them and pass them along, step by step without the tools they need to compete at the next level. And if we achieve racial representation in schools that matches society through AA, then the urgency for much needed education reform is not there. Sadly, it's not a temporary patch - it's a means to an end that keeps us from tackling the bigger, harder issues with our education system.

It's wrong on so many levels.

 

[Gulo Blue]

It may be better than calling me a racist, but it's still weak. Discrimination is discrimination. Period. And like the numbers show, it's not a small number of non-minority students that are affected by this flawed strategy.

Further, to some degree, AA is actually a disincentive for minority students to better themselves. It's another of many disservices, however well-intentioned, society does to disadvantaged minorities. We are continuously lower the standards for them and pass them along, step by step without the tools they need to compete at the next level. And if we achieve racial representation in schools that matches society through AA, then the urgency for much needed education reform is not there. Sadly, it's not a temporary patch - it's a means to an end that keeps us from tackling the bigger, harder issues with our education system.

It's wrong on so many levels.

No. We have not continuously lowered the standards, passing them along, discouraging them from bettering themselves. Nobody ever took education reform less seriously because there were an extra 112 black students at Michigan. That's absurd. It gets in the way of nothing. There is no education reform that has ever been prevented because we all felt like things were good enough. That's crazy talk.

 

[Gulo Blue]

And with regard to the prior argument being weak, the prior argument is that just tolerating racial inequality isn't good enough. It's weak if you're cool with racial inequality.

 

[Spartanmack]

A drop from 6.4% to 4.6% would be 1.8% of a class of about 6200 students. That's 112 spots. Not that big a deal to the ~4000 white students, but it's huge to the ~250 black students.

...or are you talking about total enrollment to get to your "several hundred"? It doesn't matter. The point is it's a much bigger deal to the minority population.

taking 112 spots from white applicants would only get you 112 spots for black applicants, not 250. But to answer your question, no, I'm talking about the correct math. If the goal is get black student representation on par with their representation in the population, you're talking about and extra 8% or almost 500 spots - this of course is not counting other underrepresented minorities. Either way, 112 is still a lot and 500 is outrageous. But there really shouldn't be a materiality threshold when it comes to discrimination. It's wrong. Period.

 

[Spartanmack]

No. We have not continuously lowered the standards, passing them along, discouraging them from bettering themselves. Nobody ever took education reform less seriously because there were an extra 112 black students at Michigan. That's absurd. It gets in the way of nothing. There is no education reform that has ever been prevented because we all felt like things were good enough. That's crazy talk.

This is just dumb. We absolutely have lowered the standards at virtually every level of education. And our public school system constantly passes along students who do not meet the minimum standards for advancement at every level. And I said AA was part of that, not all of it and it is. We kick the can down the road constantly, substituting ineffective patches like AA for real substantive reform all the time.

 

[Gulo Blue]

taking 112 spots from white applicants would only get you 112 spots for black applicants, not 250. But to answer your question, no, I'm talking about the correct math. If the goal is get black student representation on par with their representation in the population, you're talking about and extra 8% or almost 500 spots - this of course is not counting other underrepresented minorities. Either way, 112 is still a lot and 500 is outrageous. But there really shouldn't be a materiality threshold when it comes to discrimination. It's wrong. Period.

You misunderstand, ~250 is all there are, so an additional 112, increasing the total to ~360, would be a big deal. While taking 112 from ~4,000 is not as big a deal.

 

[Gulo Blue]

This is just dumb. We absolutely have lowered the standards at virtually every level of education. And our public school system constantly passes along students who do not meet the minimum standards for advancement at every level. And I said AA was part of that, not all of it and it is. We kick the can down the road constantly, substituting ineffective patches like AA for real substantive reform all the time.

Real reform 1st. Nobody's fighting you on that. Deliver real reform, and I'll be against AA.

Until then, it's just an excuse to continue supporting the racial inequality status quo.

 

[TheVictors]

I don't give a fuck.

I got into MICHIGAN because I earned it ...not because I'm some douche bag whitey who wanted to go there ...I would have gone to Northwestern just the same, but didnt' want to move back to Evanston.

And I had an unfair advantage ...my parents divorced when I was 8yrs old; sister 6 and brother 3 and our mother raised us by herself and we only went on Govt Asst from '82-83 with all that supersweet Govt cheese my mom got us after waiting in line.

But then after getting her Masters we moved to Northern Michigan and at age 11yrs, I got my first job as a Paper Boy.

I feel sorry for other white people who wanted to go to Michigan but couldn't get in. They should should either sue the state (or go to State) out of bitterness and should be rewarded for their utterly average whiteness and want to go to Michigan ........


.............SAID NOBODY EVER.



(In full disclosure, I'm pretty certain I got in because of dick size. They don't overtly hand out scholarships for that but Mary Sue Coleman knows whats up...).

 

[Spartanmack]

(In full disclosure, I'm pretty certain I got in because of dick size. They don't overtly hand out scholarships for that but Mary Sue Coleman knows whats up...).

There's affirmative action for people with small dicks? I didn't realize that was an underrepresented minority.

 

[Spartanmack]

Real reform 1st. Nobody's fighting you on that. Deliver real reform, and I'll be against AA.

Until then, it's just an excuse to continue supporting the racial inequality status quo.

It's a band aid on a gun shot wound, doesn't come close to addressing the problem and is itself discriminatory. It would be slightly easier to stomach if these kids (as well as qualified white kids) were from Michigan and were displacing nonresident applicants. That wouldn't make it right or acceptable but at least it would be a little more palatable.

 

[Michchamp]

It's a band aid on a gun shot wound, doesn't come close to addressing the problem and is itself discriminatory. It would be slightly easier to stomach if these kids (as well as qualified white kids) were from Michigan and were displacing nonresident applicants. That wouldn't make it right or acceptable but at least it would be a little more palatable.

The "discrimination" faced by the kids that have to go a second choice school because of AA is a mole hill compared to the mountain of discrimination the kids that benefit from it have faced in their existence, you stupid bigot.

But hey... Let's make a federal case because some cow that was the pride and joy of shitville, michigan didn't get into UM... Hey she was discriminated against, and she's white! Outrageous.

 

[Gulo Blue]

But then after getting her Masters we moved to Northern Michigan and at age 11yrs, I got my first job as a Paper Boy.

Paper Boy fist bump.

3 years of newspaper delivery = 6 month room & board in South Quad.

 

[Spartanmack]

The "discrimination" faced by the kids that have to go a second choice school because of AA is a mole hill compared to the mountain of discrimination the kids that benefit from it have faced in their existence, you stupid bigot.

But hey... Let's make a federal case because some cow that was the pride and joy of shitville, michigan didn't get into UM... Hey she was discriminated against, and she's white! Outrageous.

So I'm against discrimination in university admissions and you're 100% for it but I'm the bigot. Fail. As usual - no surprise here. You really are Nancy Pelosi stupid.

 

[Michchamp]

So I'm against discrimination in university admissions and you're 100% for it but I'm the bigot. Fail. As usual - no surprise here. You really are Nancy Pelosi stupid.

yes, you're against discrimination against white people... real altruistic stand you've taken. you're truly a great role model for your KKK brethren.