Thoughts on Israel

[Thumb]

Congrats on discovering the truth, all Jews are evil and want to commit genocide against the Muslims! BWAHAHAHAHAHA *golf clap*

You act shocked yet when the roles are reversed everyone believes it.

 

[Spartanmack]

He also spelled bigot wrong, but that's more an MSU thing, I guess.

well, I do know the difference between they're, there and their (must be an MSU thing). Also, as despicable as this guy's recommendations are, I know: 1) calling for the destruction of fighting forces and the expulsion of anti-Israel civilians is not genocide - despicable? yes but definitely not genocide. Genocide is what Hamas is calling for - thankfully, they don't have the ability to carry it out and 2) Reading a letter from an extremist (posted on FB, not entered into the record on the floor of the Knesset) then treating it like it's irrefutable proof that Israeli's secret official policy is genocide is like reading something Michele Bachmann posted on Facebook and declaring all Americans are creationists. But when have you ever let a little thing like the truth get in the way of spewing your hate?

A rogue extremist does nothing to disprove my point. Israel, although not perfect, is better than Hamas and has the moral high ground. Next.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Remove the extremists, remove the problem.

What about the conditions that yield extremists?

 

[Michchamp]

What about the conditions that yield extremists?

zyxt, jdilco, and spartan hack wonder "what conditions that yield extremists?"

Sean Hannity hasn't said anything about conditions that yield extremists...

 

[Spartanmack]

What about the conditions that yield extremists?

And michturd thinks the checkpoints and embargoes have always been in place and not just the last 10 years. That Rachel Maddow dude hasn't told him that they're there because of all the suicide bombers, rockets, etc that have been sent Israel's way for decades.

Hey Michturd, which came first - the chicken or your dumb ass?

 

[Michchamp]

And michturd thinks the checkpoints and embargoes have always been in place. That Rachel Maddow dude hasn't told him that they're there because of all the suicide bombers, rockets, etc that have been sent Israel's way for decades.

Hey Michturd, which came first, the chicken, or your dumb ass?

why not go back even further than that?

 

[Spartanmack]

why not go back even further than that?

How far? You want to go back before Israel was a state? How about back to when Palestine was an independent sovereign nation? I bet you fell for that one. How about all the way back to Joshua? Just let me know how you want to select the appropriate point in time in another feeble attempt to frame the argument in terms you think you can win.

 

[zyxt9]

You act shocked yet when the roles are reversed everyone believes it.

Wow, let's just continue making blanket black and white, all or nothing comments that do absolutely nothing to improve the situation. OR, you could admit that "everyone" is not correct. For starters, YOU don't believe it, right? The Palestinians don't, nor do many Muslims. I also do NOT believe it, contrary to what you may think, nor do any Moderates who have a rational brain and recognize the fault is not simply able to be assigned to just the Jews or Muslims. That's hardly "everyone", wouldn't you agree???

The problem, once again, are the EXTREMISTS, particularly ones who make black and white, all or nothing comments that prohibit any moderation. Interesting word, that. MODERATE-tion. MODERATION-al thought is the only way to make things actually improve.

You liberal extremists do realize that by using the comments like "genocide" and trying to make the Jews into the bad guys, you are no better than those you have despised like the "rednecks" and such who you laugh at and condemn as being stupid, ignorant, or in some other way beneath you, right?

Stop your own blatant hatred, discriminatory, inflammatory, and uneducated nonsense and actually work toward solving the problems...or just continue fanning the flames and having more innocent people be killed as a result. Despite your screams about how wrong that is, your actions just continue to perpetuate the problem, and thereby perpetuating the killing.

 

[zyxt9]

zyxt, jdilco, and spartan hack wonder "what conditions that yield extremists?"

Sean Hannity hasn't said anything about conditions that yield extremists...

swing and a miss. I haven't listened to that ass clown in over 10 years.

The issue of "conditions" cannot be addressed until the extremists like yourself are no longer adding explosives into the fire, let alone pouring gas on the flames that they are fanning to keep their hatreds alive.

Until you remove those from the equation, the conditions cannot be fixed because reasonable, rational dialogue cannot be had due to some asshole extremist demanding some sort of retribution or pushing to see how much more power they can squeeze out of the negotiations.

 

[zyxt9]

What about the conditions that yield extremists?

Now to specifically address this:

Condition #1: Creation of the nation of Palestine. This is an absolute must in order to achieve a more peaceful Middle East. Many would be surprised that there are a large contingency of Jews in favor of this.

If that is true, one might counter, then why don't they do it? Well, the current government over the Palestinians is Hamas, who have - as previously stated many times over - made it one of their missions to eliminate the state of Israel and commit genocide on all Jews. Now how fucking retarded would it be for Israel to place such a noose around their own neck as to allow for a Palestine nation to be created that will result in nothing but MORE bloodshed?

Why is it so difficult to comprehend that Israel is against people who want them killed?

Condition #2: The poor living conditions for Palestinians. Solve Condition #1, and this is far less a problem, is it not? The restrictions will not be in place. Open trade and cooperation could actually exist between Jews and Muslims. The US and other pro-Israel nations will openly and willingly engage in providing goods, services, and likely even open many businesses in the nation of Palestine. After all, there will likely be a relatively cheap labor force for at least 10 years, but as that labor force earns greater incomes, they will also spend more money. The UN and other humanitarian groups will undoubtedly also do all kinds of efforts to improve conditions too.

What additional conditions are creating Muslim Extremists that will not be resolved by simply removing the Extremists from power? It is literally a self-fulfilling problem of their own making despite any and all attempts to lay all blame on Israel and the Jews.

Israel, or at least a majority in Israel, has no qualms with a Palestinian nation being created and governed by Moderates who are willing and able to live in peace and accept Israel as a recognized nation. Yet people are so anti-Israel these days because they are unwilling to allow extremist Muslims to kill them. Kind of backwards thinking there, is it not? If you had the ability to forbid a neighbor from killing you, would you not take the actions necessary to survive? The Palestinians could easily do that by NOT launching missiles into Israel and work toward creating peace in the region, yet they continue to launch missiles, dig tunnels, create bombs, deploy various forms of attacks against Israelis...but let's all condemn the Israelis for defending themselves and trying to remove the threats.

There are probably other conditions in your mind, but if you really work through the logic of the puzzle, those conditions will not exist if the above is done first. If you think I'm wrong about that, I look forward to the information and the facts supporting the position.

As you and I have previously agreed, the Palestinians need a Ghandi to come into power.

And no, I'm not so na?ve as to believe these conditions can quickly and easily be achieved and suddenly everyone is living in harmony. There will still be extremists who try to stir the pot. But if Israel sees the Palestinians are willing, able, and actively working on bringing extremists to justice after committing an attack, then Israel won't have to be the police for them, nor bother with trying to do things like restrict trade, business, immigration, and all the other things that have the Liberal extremists screaming about.

 

[Spartanmack]

swing and a miss. I haven't listened to that ass clown in over 10 years.

The issue of "conditions" cannot be addressed until the extremists like yourself are no longer adding explosives into the fire, let alone pouring gas on the flames that they are fanning to keep their hatreds alive.

Until you remove those from the equation, the conditions cannot be fixed because reasonable, rational dialogue cannot be had due to some asshole extremist demanding some sort of retribution or pushing to see how much more power they can squeeze out of the negotiations.

No amount of fact/truth will ever convince him or thumb - that's partly what makes them extremists. Thumb actually thinks Hamas' failure rate is a reason Israel should not be targeting their munitions and turd thinks if you say Israel is better than Hamas that means you support intentional killing of civilians because that's all Israel is doing in his simple, bigoted mind.

 

[Gulo Blue]

What additional conditions are creating Muslim Extremists that will not be resolved by simply removing the Extremists from power

It's the lack of self-determination. It's the lack of freedom. Israel effectively owns all problems in Gaza and the West Bank. They own the 25-40% young adult unemployment. What I mean by that is that if you're living there and your family isn't making it, who would you blame? In the US, we blame political parties or Wall St. or each other, but in Gaza and the West Bank, there's one clear power to point a finger at and enough misery to motivate new people to want to fight back. If you could erase all religious history from every mind, you'd still have a new crop of extremists tomorrow because of the arrangement.

It's not about historic right and wrong. It's about power and living conditions. If you're in power and living conditions suck, you'd better be able to convince the people that you're on their side and their problems are driven by outside forces. Otherwise, you have to keep them under your thumb because they will try to fight back. Israel doesn't stand a chance at this. It's a PR battle that will never be won. So there are only 2 other parts of that description that could change: living conditions in Gaza and the West Bank could improve or Israel could relinquish control. I see no other possible paths to peace. Those options might be nearly unworkable, but they are the only options.

 

[Michchamp]

It's the lack of self-determination. It's the lack of freedom. Israel effectively owns all problems in Gaza and the West Bank. They own the 25-40% young adult unemployment. What I mean by that is that if you're living there and your family isn't making it, who would you blame? In the US, we blame political parties or Wall St. or each other, but in Gaza and the West Bank, there's one clear power to point a finger at and enough misery to motivate new people to want to fight back. If you could erase all religious history from every mind, you'd still have a new crop of extremists tomorrow because of the arrangement.

It's not about historic right and wrong. It's about power and living conditions. If you're in power and living conditions suck, you'd better be able to convince the people that you're on their side and their problems are driven by outside forces. Otherwise, you have to keep them under your thumb because they will try to fight back. Israel doesn't stand a chance at this. It's a PR battle that will never be won. So there are only 2 other parts of that description that could change: living conditions in Gaza and the West Bank could improve or Israel could relinquish control. I see no other possible paths to peace. Those options might be nearly unworkable, but they are the only options.

You sound like some sort of liberal.

if the Israelis' give more $$$ to Gaza, those Gazans will just sit at home, collect their welfare checks, and become lazy!

No... they either make it with hard work (and without trade with the outside world because of the embargo, without electricity because Israel controls that, and without drinking water, because Israel controls that as well), or they get the bomb.

 

[Gulo Blue]

You sound like some sort of liberal.

Freedom and self-determination aren't liberal. And it's wrong to think Israel should just supply these things. They still own the situation then. They should keep pumping money into screening technology to try to minimize embargoes. That and be very public about allowing free movement and trade with Egypt and Jordan. Make it clear that it's not just Israel keeping people stuck in Gaza.

 

[zyxt9]

Anyone who fails to recognize that other nations are also keeping Gaza down is at best uninformed.

Blue, the freedom and self-determination is up to the Palestinians to achieve by throwing out their extremist government. Obviously the Muslims prefer to blame the Jews because they are an easy scapegoat, but it is their own government that is controlled by Hamas that is the problem.

Israel does not care about PR relative to survival. The things many people have failed to realize is that IF Israel wanted to, they could have killed millions of Palestinians. They have the capability to wipe out everyone in Gaza. IF they were to do that, then people like champ would be justified with their genocide claims. Israel continues to display restraint, yet the Liberals only scream about how they are killing people.

What I don't understand about the Liberal's view is, where are their voices when terrorists kill? Why are they not screaming about ISIS and other regions of the world where extremists are killing 10s if not 100s of thousands of people?

Looking at the big picture, Israel is killing a very low percentage of civilians. Heck, the Mexican and other drug cartels kill more people on a regular basis. So the question begs to be asked, why are they being so hyper-focused on Israel? I don't think it is anti-Semitic, but it definitely appears to be anti-Israel. Is that because of the stereotypes about Jews and money, or the military capabilities they have to defend themselves, or what?

Israelis do a heck of lot more than Muslims to develop cures for diseases and provide other medical advances, where is that ever mentioned? With the trillions of dollars the Muslims have made from oil, why have they not developed the most outstanding hospitals with the most advanced research and development? They could have at worse developed a cure for something in the past 50 years without assistance from Western medicine, or even Russian medicine for that matter since they are so connected with Russian weaponry.

You are saying that only Israel is capable of providing a better future for the Palestinians, but the truth is the Palestinians have to initiate that better future instead of remaining in the same endless cycle they find themselves in. Furthermore, the other Muslim nations who have billions of dollars could provide the Palestinians with something other than weapons. Instead many have shipped "humanitarian" aid to Palestine which mostly was a cover for weapon smuggling.

Point being, the problem is far larger than something Israel is able to fix on their own. Even if they were to do everything the Liberals demand, the end result with the current mindset in Palestine would be continued attacks against Israelis and more Israelis being killed. Why should Israel change their behavior until they are provided a sense of peace, security, and acceptance by Palestinians? Israel is willing to acknowledge a Palestinian state, but the Palestinians still deny the right of Israel to exist.

Seriously, WTF is Israel supposed to do? There is no solution that they can initiate, the change from the status quo has to come from the Palestinians, by showing they are ready and willing to live side by side in peace and harmony instead of trying to kill all Jews.

 

[Gulo Blue]

You are saying that only Israel is capable of providing a better future for the Palestinians, but the truth is the Palestinians have to initiate that better future instead of remaining in the same endless cycle they find themselves in.

No. I'm not saying that Israel could or should just provide the Palestinians with a better future. What I am saying is that it is only natural for them to be blamed for everything that goes wrong in Gaza, whether it is their fault or not. It's really basic human behavior. If there are walls and checkpoints and embargoes, there's going to be resistance. Build bigger walls, lock down checkpoints, and increase embargoes and wait 'til they learn to blame themselves and be happy about it isn't a realistic solution.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Seriously, WTF is Israel supposed to do?

Like I said before, the more spending on screening capabilities, the better. Making checkpoints as porous as possible should be a top priority. They should make sure they don't get in the way of self-sufficiency efforts. Try to avoid damaging infrastructure.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Even if they were to do everything the Liberals demand

What do liberals have to do with anything? Tell me what you think a conservative solution looks like.

 

[zyxt9]

You sound like some sort of liberal.

if the Israelis' give more $$$ to Gaza, those Gazans will just sit at home, collect their welfare checks, and become lazy!

No... they either make it with hard work (and without trade with the outside world because of the embargo, without electricity because Israel controls that, and without drinking water, because Israel controls that as well), or they get the bomb.

You fail to grasp the fact that for Israelis, and Jews in general all over the world, tend to be very Liberal in their opinions. They push for improving education and taking care of people in need, hence their core reason for sending aid to those whom they have attacked. Jews do not take killing lightly, it is not part of their mantra, mission, or other stated goal to kill. But they do believe in the right to self-defense.

Jews would actually be willing to pay for every Palestinian to be able to sit home and not work or do anything productive in any way, provided the Palestinians stop trying to kill them and recognize their right to exist. I can honestly say I am not aware of a single Jew who would not be willing to contribute toward a peaceful resolution even if it meant they paid for every bit of energy, food, and comforts of life for every Palestinian in Gaza and the West Bank.

Now, how many Muslims mutually feel that way about Jews and Israelis? Would the Muslims spend their trillions from oil to provide every Jew the opportunity to not work but still live a very comfortable life free from Want?

You need to re-evaluate your views on the Middle East, because throwing your support behind the Palestinians is 180 degrees from everything else you preach on here. Jews tend to be Liberals, as quite evident from: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/jewvote.html as well as the numerous debates I've experienced where the number of Democrat voters outnumbered the Republican voters by at least 100 to 1. Heck, in my shul alone there are only 3 of us out of over 3000 who are Moderate enough to consider voting Republican. The primary reason is they tend to be very supportive of social welfare, medicine, and other social causes. That is prevalent across pretty much every Jewish congregation in the entire world.

Yet the reality is, how can they (Israeli Jews) help provide for those social agendas if they are dead or fear being killed because of the continued objective of Palestinians and other Muslims being the genocide of all Jews? When will you recognize THAT? When will you demand a change in THAT? When will you raise up a whisper of disapproval about that? Is it because you will be forced to recognize that until THAT "little" thing is removed from the equation, you cannot really be for Palestine without being anti-Israel? Then again, you do not seem to care about that, do you? Based on all of your support for the Palestinians, you are perfectly okay with the genocide of all Jews and elimination of Israel being a primary objective for Hamas.

Sure seems you're not the humanitarian you try to make yourself out to be, when you are supporting people who actively voice their desire for genocide over your supposed claims of genocide being committed based on the comment of a dumbass who was saying that was something Israel should be doing...which means that genocide is NOT an active objective of the Israeli government despite your screaming that an idiot's comment that it SHOULD be pursued is actual doctrine. That's by far more damning than having it be an actual part of the governing party's mission statement and repeatedly stated goal by every leader, right?

 

[zyxt9]

Like I said before, the more spending on screening capabilities, the better. Making checkpoints as porous as possible should be a top priority. They should make sure they don't get in the way of self-sufficiency efforts. Try to avoid damaging infrastructure.

And that will stop the smuggling via tunnels and other methods...how exactly? The problem is the DEMAND side of the equation. The Palestinians are willingly driving the demand side for killing Jews. Until that demand side is at least reduced to a minority, the Israelis can implement all of what you have said without any change to the true problem, Palestinian unwillingness to accept Israel as a legit state and the right of Jews to live.