Free Agent transaction tracker

[Rebbiv]

I wonder if they would take JV for him straight up?

Why would they trade for JV?

Kershaw
Greinke
Ryu
Dan Haren

They just traded for Juan Nicasio.

With Julio Uras a year or two away.

 

[Thumb]

That was just Tom's flat sense of humor.

 

[tomdalton22]

Why would they trade for JV?

Kershaw
Greinke
Ryu
Dan Haren

They just traded for Juan Nicasio.

With Julio Uras a year or two away.

Why would anybody trade for JV? Just throwing it out there for fun!

 

[Rebbiv]

Why would anybody trade for JV? Just throwing it out there for fun!

Plenty of teams would trade for JV. You are actually being cynical, but I get it.

My point is that the trade has to work for both parties and each team is looking to get value in return.

 

[spockmaster]

Jays signed Carrera to a minor league deal. lols

 

[jdeb]

I think they should turn JV into a closer
In a coyple years

 

[spockmaster]

Corner OFs are disappearing fast, Markakis is signing with the Braves for some reason, and Saunders got traded to the Jays.

 

[tomdalton22]

Markakis to the Braves....reported to be 4 years for $45M

 

[Thundercats]

Need to sign Melky now!

 

[Rebbiv]

Corner OFs are disappearing fast, Markakis is signing with the Braves for some reason, and Saunders got traded to the Jays.

Wow on the Saunders trade. Saunders = top 25 OFer. Happ = bottom of the barrell starter. This would have been a kin to trading Nate Robertson for Torii Hunter back in 2009.

 

[tomdalton22]

Wow on the Saunders trade. Saunders = top 25 OFer. Happ = bottom of the barrell starter. This would have been a kin to trading Nate Robertson for Torii Hunter back in 2009.

compare Saunders to Hunter as of their age 28 season

Hunter had 6 full seasons under his belt, Saunders 5

Torii averaged 28 doubles & 20 HR a season while playing gold glove caliber CF
Saunders averaged 16 doubles & 10 HR a season while playing less than average corner OF defense. Also, Saunders only averaged 101 games a season (which impacts his offensive totals) but if you aren't on the field you aren't helping the team.

I don't see Saunders as a top 25 OF.

 

[Rebbiv]

compare Saunders to Hunter as of their age 28 season

Hunter had 6 full seasons under his belt, Saunders 5

Torii averaged 28 doubles & 20 HR a season while playing gold glove caliber CF
Saunders averaged 16 doubles & 10 HR a season while playing less than average corner OF defense. Also, Saunders only averaged 101 games a season (which impacts his offensive totals) but if you aren't on the field you aren't helping the team.

I don't see Saunders as a top 25 OF.

Saunders 2012-2014 Away

24th in OPS
27th in wOBA
27th in wRC+
74th in UZR/150 (- 4.5) **75th was Torii Hunter

2012-2014 Away (81 MLB OFer Qualify with 600 PA)

OPS
24th Saunders
27th Hunter
28th J.D. Martinez

wOBA
25th J.D. Martinez
26th Hunter
27th Saunders

wRC+
25th J.D. Martinez
26th Hunter
27th Saunders

Hunter 2007-2009 Away (my comparison)

31st in OPS
39th in wOBA
35th in wRC+
77th in UZR/150 (- 5.8)

Hunter 2001-2003 Away (your comparison)

23rd in OPS
25th in wOBA
25th in wRC+
13th in UZR/150 (10.1)

Saunders has had to play in one of the worst offensive parks in his career. Initially a CFer, where he has a negative UZR/150, he has become a solid defensive corner OFer (1.2 UZR/150 in LF and 18.3 UZR/150 in RF).

Using counting stats and the fact that someone won a Gold Glove is very misguided. Torii spent all those years in the "HomerDome" and Saunders got to hit in SAFECO, one of the worst parks for HRs. Fair comparison?

Torii won Gold Gloves from 2001-2009. UZR/150 did not start being computed until 2002. Let's see where he stacks up.

MLB Rankings

2002 = 32nd
2003 = 7th
2004 = 40th
2005 = 34th
2006 = 60th
2007 = 41st
2008 = 59th
2009 = 44th

Hunters defense has always been overhyped and overrated because he won all those Gold Gloves. Truth is, based on the new standard where only 1 CFer can be named per year, Hunter may have only one 1 GG and that might have been in 2003, if then.

Would you trade J.D. Martinez for J.A. Happ?

Do we want to compare the differences between J.A. Happ and Nate Robertson next?

 

[tomdalton22]

Saunders 2012-2014 Away

24th in OPS
27th in wOBA
27th in wRC+
74th in UZR/150 (- 4.5) **75th was Torii Hunter

2012-2014 Away (81 MLB OFer Qualify with 600 PA)

2007 - 2009 Hunter's OBP was .347 and averaged 24 HR a year
Saunders past 3 seasons OBP was .320 and averaged 13 HR a year

Saunders also only played in 116 games per year....you have to be playing to help your team.

Your own stats prove that Saunders isn't a top 25 OFer

 

[Rebbiv]

2007 - 2009 Hunter's OBP was .347 and averaged 24 HR a year
Saunders past 3 seasons OBP was .320 and averaged 13 HR a year

Saunders also only played in 116 games per year....you have to be playing to help your team.

Your own stats prove that Saunders isn't a top 25 OFer

So now we isolate stats to prove a point? And we are going to ignore park factors?

And as far as ranking, you are just looking at the offensive ranking and making assumptions. There are players ahead of Saunders in the offensive categories that are way worse than him defensively. When you look at the total picture, Saunders, when healthy, is a top 25 outfielder. You have yet to make a compelling argument to the contrary.

 

[tomdalton22]

So now we isolate stats to prove a point? And we are going to ignore park factors?

And as far as ranking, you are just looking at the offensive ranking and making assumptions. There are players ahead of Saunders in the offensive categories that are way worse than him defensively. When you look at the total picture, Saunders, when healthy, is a top 25 outfielder. You have yet to make a compelling argument to the contrary.

and there are players below him offensively that are much better than he is defensively. He is 24th best offensively (if you only go by OPS) and 74th defensively. So he is barely in the top 25 offensively and barely top 75 defensively....I don't know how you could call him a top 25 OF given those two rankings.

 

[Rebbiv]

and there are players below him offensively that are much better than he is defensively. He is 24th best offensively (if you only go by OPS) and 74th defensively. So he is barely in the top 25 offensively and barely top 75 defensively....I don't know how you could call him a top 25 OF given those two rankings.

Because his UZR/150 was primarily for CF and he is destined to be a corner OFer (ala Matt Kemp). Have you seen his UZR/150 for LF and/or RF in comparison to CF?

How I rank players. I add Away RC/650 and UZR/150 together. I then rank the sum. Is it an exact science? No. But it certainly is better than looking at HRs and Doubles and guessing how good someone is defensively.

 

[tomdalton22]

Because his UZR/150 was primarily for CF and he is destined to be a corner OFer (ala Matt Kemp). Have you seen his UZR/150 for LF and/or RF in comparison to CF?

How I rank players. I add Away RC/650 and UZR/150 together. I then rank the sum. Is it an exact science? No. But it certainly is better than looking at HRs and Doubles and guessing how good someone is defensively.

but you don't even consider that he can't seem to stay healthy (only averaged 116 games over the past 3 seasons)? Those counting stats matter...don't they? Do you want a corner OFer that is less than average defensively to hit 13HRs? That doesn't sound like a top 25 OFer to me.

 

[Mitchrapp]

but you don't even consider that he can't seem to stay healthy (only averaged 116 games over the past 3 seasons)? Those counting stats matter...don't they? Do you want a corner OFer that is less than average defensively to hit 13HRs? That doesn't sound like a top 25 OFer to me.

I guess it depends on the other OF's. And if he's in RF, he's not average defensively.

 

[Rebbiv]

but you don't even consider that he can't seem to stay healthy (only averaged 116 games over the past 3 seasons)? Those counting stats matter...don't they? Do you want a corner OFer that is less than average defensively to hit 13HRs? That doesn't sound like a top 25 OFer to me.

Not all HRs are the same. Player X could have 25 HRs and 15 of them came with the game out of reach (padding stats). Where Player Z couls have 18 HRs and all came with the game on the line. You still haven't addressed the park factor at all.

There are rate stats for HRs. Either PA/HR or just plain ISO.


Saunders

ISO = 28th

Speed = 18th

Saunders in AL East Parks 18.9 PA/HR

Saunders in AL Central Parks 64.0 PA/HR

Saunders in AL West Parks 41.6 PA/HR

Do you think going to Toronto and an AL East team going to help?

Additionally, wRC+ is a production stat that incorporates events like HRs and actually puts them into context.

http://www.fangraphs.com/library/offense/wrc/

Please read the article.


A completely healthy player for most or all of his career can also be limited or miss a season. Saunders being hurt in 2014 has what bearing moving forward? Is he over 35? Were they injuries that effect him going forward?

While I like a spirited debate, I think you are harping over trivial details just to be objectionable.

 

[tomdalton22]

Not trying to be "objectionable"...my opinion is just different than yours. The things that I am looking at (including your stats) tell me that he is not a top 25 OFer. His $2.3M pre arb. salary supports that as well as the fact that Seattle took what appears to be a #5 starter in trade for him.

There are 30 teams...in theory he would be the best OF on 5 teams if he was #25?