Ian Kinsler All-Star 2014

[Thumb]

The Kinsler / Fielder thread unfortunately got locked but there are a few gems that should be brought back around and remembered. There is a lesson to be learned about keeping one's self in check when evaluating players, regardless how much a person "knows".

"We got bent over on this deal." Thumb

"Kinsler is a joke of a player." Rebbiv

"And read all my posts. I am not upset at getting rid of Fielder. I am upset with the garbage we got in return. A bag of balls would have been better." Rebbiv (he gets two quotes since he was the most certain)

"I hope this thread gets bumped in 6 months. When everyone is bitching about Kinsler." Thumb

"Anyone that thinks Kinsler is a true all-star is kidding themselves...Nobody should think Kinsler is a great player." Thundercats

Rebbiv did say we should re-visit the thread in a year or two and I agree. Thumb wanted to talk about it six months later and his prophecy about people complaining about one of this season's top three 2nd baseman has been proven incorrect.

I'm in no way trying to start a feud so if people have a problem with these guys please don't call them morons or whatever in this thread. It was and still is a good baseball conversation. More importantly, it reflects that our comments are stored and we must own them or recant at some point so be nice and keep hyperbole to a minimum lest some jerk like me digs through the dung.

You realize quotes without the context they are posted in are misleading right?

We got bent over on this deal.

I posted that as a response when I learned it was a straight up trade plus all that cash to Texas with us not receiving another player. But why actually pay attention to the conversation you're quoting when you can just skim looking for certain posters names?

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

You realize quotes without the context they are posted in are misleading right?



I posted that as a response when I learned it was a straight up trade plus all that cash to Texas with us not receiving another player. But why actually pay attention to the conversation you're quoting when you can just skim looking for certain posters names?

There is NOTHING misleading about those quotes.They represent ENTIRE posts with the exception of Thundercats'. They require no "context" as they stand alone as statements. Read them and then tell me how they are misleading.

I didn't skim for posters names. I read the messages without looking to see the person who posted. If the post was dogging Kinsler I checked to see if the person was still actively posting here of late. There were only one or two other people down on Ian in the thread, I can put those in if they will make you feel better about what you said.

 

[tomdalton22]

It's not as easy as saying 50 hits is better than 50 walks. Walk with the bases loaded, for example, better than a bases empty single. Bases empty for both, 9 pitch walk is better than a 4 pitch single (the pitchers work more).

It's not black and white..

unless the hit is an extra base hit

 

[stonecold2136]

if you're not getting on base you are getting out. Outs end innings, walks don't.

24 homers and 73 RBI reflects guys not getting on in front of Votto more than it is a ding against him. I would also contend that he is swinging at HIS pitch or getting walked. That's what every player is taught. He has good knowledge of the zone. Problem is the guys behind him aren't doing the same or able to scare the pitcher into throwing to Votto. I hate the approach of blaming a team's struggles on the only guy who is doing it correctly.

Walks mean more pitches which means getting into the other team's pen early. I'll take a walk over a base hit any day for the pitch count if nothing else. Get on base and anything can happen.

Rebbiv did make a post about line up protection. With the data he posted proved his point. I am not sure if he was pulling another trick with numbers, but he truly convinced me. His post proved there is no such thing as protection.

I am not sure where it is at. But it is somewhere on the boards maybe 4 or 5 months ago he posted it.

I never dug deep enough into it to know how much a player is effected with runners on base with first base open. If we had a few of us dig into it we might be able to see if line up protection exists or not in all situations.

 

[Mitchrapp]

unless the hit is an extra base hit

That's why I said it's not as easy as saying one is better than the other..

 

[tomdalton22]

That's why I said it's not as easy as saying one is better than the other..

I hear ya. I'll take a hit over a walk every time regardless of the circumstances.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I hear ya. I'll take a hit over a walk every time regardless of the circumstances.

I don't see a hit even a double better than a walk based on bases empty when the double is hit vs bases full when the player gets a walk.

Now bases full in both situations I'll take the single.

 

[tomdalton22]

I don't see a hit even a double better than a walk based on bases empty when the double is hit vs bases full when the player gets a walk.

Now bases full in both situations I'll take the single.

With bases empty, you would rather have a walk than a 2B? That makes no sense to me.

 

[Mitchrapp]

With bases empty, you would rather have a walk than a 2B? That makes no sense to me.

I didn't say that..

 

[tomdalton22]

I didn't say that..

Honestly, I couldn't understand what you were saying.


Originally Posted by Mitchrapp View Post
I don't see a hit even a double better than a walk based on bases empty when the double is hit vs bases full when the player gets a walk.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Honestly, I couldn't understand what you were saying.


Originally Posted by Mitchrapp View Post
I don't see a hit even a double better than a walk based on bases empty when the double is hit vs bases full when the player gets a walk.

What's better a bases empty double or a bases loaded walk? In one you score a run, the other you don't.

The point being it's not as easy saying 10 hits are better than 10 walks.

 

[tomdalton22]

What's better a bases empty double or a bases loaded walk? In one you score a run, the other you don't.

The point being it's not as easy saying 10 hits are better than 10 walks.

I just didn't understand what you were trying to say. I agree that a bases loaded walk is better than a bases empty double. Of course if the bases are loaded a hit is always better than a walk. I would also say that the odds are in favor of 10 hits being better than 10 walks solely based on the odds that some of those situations would have men on base. If there is anyone on base a hit is always better than a walk just based on the fact that it forces the defense to make a play.

 

[Thumb]

I think the big point people are missing is a walk is better than an out. sure a hit is usually better than a walk, but a batted ball has the chance at being an out, or even 2 or 3. A walk is never an out.

In situations where a team is behind and needs baserunners, a walk is a big thing.

 

[tomdalton22]

I think the big point people are missing is a walk is better than an out. sure a hit is usually better than a walk, but a batted ball has the chance at being an out, or even 2 or 3. A walk is never an out.

In situations where a team is behind and needs baserunners, a walk is a big thing.

I think this turned into a hit vs. walk conversation. I don't think anybody has said an out is better than a walk (unless it is a sac fly that scores a run to win the game)

 

[Mitchrapp]

I just didn't understand what you were trying to say. I agree that a bases loaded walk is better than a bases empty double. Of course if the bases are loaded a hit is always better than a walk. I would also say that the odds are in favor of 10 hits being better than 10 walks solely based on the odds that some of those situations would have men on base. If there is anyone on base a hit is always better than a walk just based on the fact that it forces the defense to make a play.

Yes, mostly :cheers:

 

[spockmaster]

Honestly, I dont care how they get on base as long as they get on base. This started with wishing Kinsler would walk more, which is reasonable expectation for him. Even though he's hitting .307, his OBP is only .340 because his 4.5% walk rate is less than half of his 9.2% career rate. He's been very productive, but he could be even more so if he got on base more ahead of our big bats. I think thats all was meant by the original comment on it. I don't see whats wrong with it either, I dunno how this got started since I dont think anyone wanted him to get less hits to get more walks or anything. Maybe less stupid popouts...

 

[Rebbiv]

Honestly, I dont care how they get on base as long as they get on base. This started with wishing Kinsler would walk more, which is reasonable expectation for him. Even though he's hitting .307, his OBP is only .340 because his 4.5% walk rate is less than half of his 9.2% career rate. He's been very productive, but he could be even more so if he got on base more ahead of our big bats. I think thats all was meant by the original comment on it. I don't see whats wrong with it either, I dunno how this got started since I dont think anyone wanted him to get less hits to get more walks or anything. Maybe less stupid popouts...

This is the exact point I was alluding to. It has nothing to do with Polanco or anyone else who had/has a bad walk rate. It is about Kinsler and how his walk rate has dramatically regressed this year.

2011-2013
12.6 PA/BB

Career
11.0 PA/BB

2014
22.3 PA/BB

Because of his regression of walk rate, it makes his 2014 season even more remarkable and probably unrepeatable.

 

[Thumb]

I think this turned into a hit vs. walk conversation. I don't think anybody has said an out is better than a walk (unless it is a sac fly that scores a run to win the game)

The point there Tom was a batted ball can be an out. A walk cannot.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Cabrera calls Ian Kinsler the Tiger's MVP so far this season.

“I was just coming in, trying to help the team any way I could,” Kinsler said. “Obviously hitting in front of Miguel and Victor (Martinez) is a great spot to be. I didn’t know how it was all going to work, but I see a lot more fastballs.”

That quote from Kinsler says that MLB hitters believe that "protection" in a lineup changes outcomes.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140714/SPORTS0104/307140099#ixzz37VvWBPcv
​

 

[Mitchrapp]

Cabrera calls Ian Kinsler the Tiger's MVP so far this season.

?I was just coming in, trying to help the team any way I could,? Kinsler said. ?Obviously hitting in front of Miguel and Victor (Martinez) is a great spot to be. I didn?t know how it was all going to work, but I see a lot more fastballs.?

That quote from Kinsler says that MLB hitters believe that "protection" in a lineup changes outcomes.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20140714/SPORTS0104/307140099#ixzz37VvWBPcv
​

He'd be wrong..it was and still is Victor. Now add in JD because he wasn't expected to do anything. I'd say Kinsler is 3rd.