Offseason Deals and Rumors

[stonecold2136]

Like I said splitting hairs again. I truly question your loyalty as a Tiger fan. Kinsler put up a solid All star season.

I have heard how he can't steal a base he was caught stealing only 4 times out of 19 tries

Or he can't stay healthy an entire season he played 161 games.

Also how he won't have power at Comerica he hot more HR's at home than on the road.

He even hit 3 more HR's than the Golden boy Robinson Cano.

I am really interested in what your opinion is of Adam Jones.

All players can't work the count every at bat like Jose Bautista.

 

[stonecold2136]

I can't tell you how many times I called some posters out for the anti Kinsler campaign last off season.

It got so bad that Monster even had to jump in and question if some of you here were tiger fans I thought the Ian Kinsler bashing was done.

So it seems the board is dead and I get baited into another bs thread about Kinsler. When all I am doing is trying comment about what a liability Matt Kemp is. His body is breaking down he is not the same guy he was 4 or 5 years ago.

He was untradeable 2 years ago. The Dodgers wanted to dump him so bad they ate a significant amount of his contract.

Kemp has bad hamstrings, a gimpy ankle and now has arthritis. He is nothing more than a DH at this point in his career

 

[gotime909]

Why can't a poster simply like a player here without getting bulldozed by the same angry mob?

 

[spockmaster]

Seriously guys, lets just give it a rest. Some people like Kinsler, some people don't. We all know each other's positions already and arguing in circles endlessly about it isnt going to change anyones opinion.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Like I said splitting hairs again. I truly question your loyalty as a Tiger fan. Kinsler put up a solid All star season.

I have heard how he can't steal a base he was caught stealing only 4 times out of 19 tries

Or he can't stay healthy an entire season he played 161 games.

Also how he won't have power at Comerica he hot more HR's at home than on the road.

He even hit 3 more HR's than the Golden boy Robinson Cano.

I am really interested in what your opinion is of Adam Jones.

All players can't work the count every at bat like Jose Bautista.

I don't mind Kinsler, when did I say I didn't? But to compare him to Cano 2014 and insist Miggy is the reason why he gets IBB (you brought it up) and then disregard anything else when evidence siggests he doesn't get IBB..so what do you do..bring up something else.

 

[kalinecountry]

The problem we/theTigers have is putting a player in a batting order spot that isn't conducive to his best rewards to the team.
Not having a true leadoff hitter or # 2 hitter puts these players at the top two spots in the lineup who are good in most everything except getting on base at a better percentage of the time.

even with that said, I asked Neil Weinberg at the New English D Tigers Blog that question and he posted;
Kinsler, Cabrera, Cespedes, VMart, JD, Nick, Avila, Gose, Iggy v RHP
Kinsler, Cabrera, Cespedes, VMart, JD, Nick, Avila, Iggy, Davis v Lhp

 

[spockmaster]

I like those lineups.

 

[firehim]

There are only 11 guys that walked more than 70 times in all of baseball last year. I know what you guys are saying about 1-2 hitters getting on and setting the table, but they just aren't out there.

Of the 11 guys that walked 70 times, 8 of them had 20 or more home runs, so they aren't going to be setting the table anyway.

 

[spockmaster]

I dont get how having power at the top in addition to OBP would be undesirable. Hitting home runs is the ultimate form of setting the table. They dont make an out and we get a run right away. Setting the table is all about making as few outs as possible at the top of the lineup, hence the focus on overall OBP as the primary desirable ability. If they do other stuff too (hit for power, steal bases, etc) thats just gravy on top.

All we want for table-setters as a minimum is someone with, oh, an OBP of at least .340 (though of course, higher would be better.) There were 53 qualified hitters in MLB with an OBP of at least .340 last year, so its not like those guys are rare. I do love walks and good walk rates, but they arent everything if its all theyve got. A good example from last year is BJ Upton. He walked a good amount (9.8%) but only had an OBP of .287 because he was so fucking terrible at everything else. You need a good balance, and we dont really have anyone who has that.

 

[Rebbiv]

29 MLB players had at least 300 PAs batting #1

OBP
24. Kinsler
27. A. Jackson

Walk Rate
22. A. Jackson
28. In. Kinsler

DET was 12th of 15 in the AL for OBP leading off the game.


I. Kinsler 1st Batter of the Game (Career .310 OBP)

2011 .206 BAVG .301 OBP .421 SLG .722 OPS
2012 .264 BAVG .324 OBP .465 SLG .790 OPS
2013 .230 BAVG .309 OBP .333 SLG .642 OPS
2014 .203 BAVG .241 OBP .354 SLG .595 OPS

A. Jackson 1st Batter of the Game (Career .346 OBP)

2011 .233 BAVG .279 OBP .331 SLG .610 OPS
2012 .333 BAVG .393 OBP .545 SLG .938 OPS
2013 .274 BAVG .354 OBP .398 SLG .752 OPS
2014 .269 BAVG .288 OBP .321 SLG .609 OPS

R. Davis 1st Batter of the Game (Career .319 OBP)

2011 .273 BAVG .304 OBP .409 SLG .713 OPS
2012 .171 BAVG .209 OBP .293 SLG .502 OPS
2013 .357 BAVG .357 OBP .571 SLG .929 OPS
2014 .314 BAVG .327 OBP .412 SLG .739 OPS

 

[firehim]

I dont get how having power at the top in addition to OBP would be undesirable. Hitting home runs is the ultimate form of setting the table. They dont make an out and we get a run right away. Setting the table is all about making as few outs as possible at the top of the lineup, hence the focus on overall OBP as the primary desirable ability. If they do other stuff too (hit for power, steal bases, etc) thats just gravy on top.

All we want for table-setters as a minimum is someone with, oh, an OBP of at least .340 (though of course, higher would be better.) There were 53 qualified hitters in MLB with an OBP of at least .340 last year, so its not like those guys are rare. I do love walks and good walk rates, but they arent everything if its all theyve got. A good example from last year is BJ Upton. He walked a good amount (9.8%) but only had an OBP of .287 because he was so fucking terrible at everything else. You need a good balance, and we dont really have anyone who has that.

If you looked at the players, you would see my point about the home runs. In fact, the Tigers already have two of those players in Cabrera and Victor. Those aren't guys that you bat 1-2. Mike Trout is another one, and we aren't getting him. BTW, there were 20 guys. I was looking at AL only stats.

As for this .340 number. If Cespedes has a combined 14 more hits and walks last year he would be at .340 OBP. Just put him in the number 2 spot. Cabrera should get him a few more points. What is that, reaching base one more time a week? He probably fouled out in Oakland once a week.

 

[spockmaster]

Actually, I WOULD hit Miggy or VMart 2. Maybe not 1 (but maybe). Get your best hitters the most at-bats, and most ABs with runners on.


Also, 14 hits/walks would only bump up his OBP to .322. To get to .340+, he'd have had to add at least 26 hits/walks to last year's total. Thats a tall order for someone with zero plate discipline and who hits more fly balls than anything else.


Also, lineup protection is largely a myth, so Miggy wouldnt give him a boost hitting behind him. It didnt work for Prince and Miggy: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/what-would-lineup-protection-look-like/

 

[firehim]

Actually, I WOULD hit Miggy or VMart 2. Maybe not 1 (but maybe). Get your best hitters the most at-bats, and most ABs with runners on.


Also, 14 hits/walks would only bump up his OBP to .322. To get to .340+, he'd have had to add at least 26 hits/walks to last year's total. Thats a tall order for someone with zero plate discipline and who hits more fly balls than anything else.


Also, lineup protection is largely a myth, so Miggy wouldnt give him a boost hitting behind him. It didnt work for Prince and Miggy: http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/what-would-lineup-protection-look-like/

OK used plate appearances hits and walks, I didn't know that Hit by pit and sacrifice flies were factored in. He probably won't make it to .340, but we can still hold out some hope. He did it one year.

 

[spockmaster]

We can hope, but its not very likely. The league figured him out after his first year and the only "adjustment" hes made is to become even more of a free swinger, and thats been playing for teams that value plate discipline. I shudder to think what he'll do playing for the Tigers, who place little to no value on plate discipline. If he even comes close to cutting his walk rate as much as Kinsler and Hunter did when they came to town, he might not even walk 20 times this year.

 

[Rebbiv]

There are 348 MLB players with at least 200 PAs Away the last 2 years. The Mean OBP is .318 OBP. 23.9% have at least a .340 OBP.

7. M. Cabrera .388
9. V. Martinez .387
17. P. Fielder .370

114. J.D. Martinez .330
125. T. Hunter .327
131. A. Dirks .325
148. A. Avila .322
160. A. Jackson .320

203. O. Infante .312
208. J. Peralta .310
220. R. Davis .308
242. I. Kinsler .303
264. Y. Cespedes .294
290. A. Gose .286
308. R. Santiago .277

J. Iglesias = .306 Career Away OBP

B. Holaday = .286 Career Away OBP

Ummmm....nevermind.

 

[biggunsbob]

Well Joyner helped JD... Maybe he can help Cespedes..

 

[spockmaster]

JD reworked his swing in the offseason before we signed him, but Joyner may have helped a little. It's not like he walked a ton either though. I think Miggy and VMart helped some too, so maybe they'll have some influence on Cespedes. who knows.

 

[tomdalton22]

There are 348 MLB players with at least 200 PAs Away the last 2 years. The Mean OBP is .318 OBP. 23.9% have at least a .340 OBP.

7. M. Cabrera .388
9. V. Martinez .387
17. P. Fielder .370

114. J.D. Martinez .330
125. T. Hunter .327
131. A. Dirks .325
148. A. Avila .322
160. A. Jackson .320

203. O. Infante .312
208. J. Peralta .310
220. R. Davis .308
242. I. Kinsler .303
264. Y. Cespedes .294
290. A. Gose .286
308. R. Santiago .277

J. Iglesias = .306 Career Away OBP

B. Holaday = .286 Career Away OBP

Ummmm....nevermind.

Just curious....what is the median OBP?

 

[Rebbiv]

Just curious....what is the median OBP?

It was in my original post. .318 OBP is Median. Mean can be another word for median, based on context.

 

[tomdalton22]

It was in my original post. .318 OBP is Median. Mean can be another word for median, based on context.

oh...didn't know you meant median. I know a lot of times the mean and median are similar but in some cases they are very different. I have never heard of them used in the same manner but maybe in baseball stats they do.