Tigers interested in + now with agreement in place for Joakim Soria

[Mitchrapp]

Our opinion for or against doesn't mean shit. A man who actually runs a MLB team thinks you're wrong. Whether it works or not is immaterial to his beliefs that a reliever is important if you want to win a Championship. The major league team you run doesn't have to do it the same way of course.

So all associated with baseball does this..it's a shitty move and won't help. How many games to you think they get the win because of Street over their current, now former closer? 1?

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

So all associated with baseball does this..it's a shitty move and won't help. How many games to you think they get the win because of Street over their current, now former closer? 1?

So often you sidetrack from the main point especially once it starts to take on water. The contention was that "most agree" that you don't make a reliever the key part of a trade because they rarely win or lose games. The actions of MLB teams (people who know much more than us) indicates "most" is a misnomer.

There are many different perspectives and ways to win. To be so arrogant and unable to say "okay, maybe not everyone feels this way but I think you shouldn't trade for a reliever." Instead you say "it's a shitty move and won't help." Damn if that doesn't sound like the same bullshit that permeated the Ian Kinsler thread. People ran out of logic so much they just said that Kinsler is "garbage".

Truth is none of us know how it will work out. Street could shit the bed under the pressure of pitching for a real team with real chances. It's happened to him before. Or he may go on to make us all reminisce about K-Rod's run. Nobody knows. What we DO know is the Angels saw a problem with their BP and addressed it with one of the best in MLB this season. They had a hole in their roof and they patched it. You (and a few others) seem to advocate putting in a new floor when there is a hole in the roof.

I think the change will result in more than one win. Joe Smith was doing a damn fine job and now they have a closer quality pitcher for the 8th. If Grilli finds it again he can take the 7th. If the Tigers had one more quality closer then it would have been Chamberlain coming in in the 7th yesterday instead of the scrubs that are a roll of the dice every time out.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

So where does this leave us? I actually think it might help that LAA were the first to pull the trigger. Less competition to bid with when we make our move.

What do you guys think it would take to land Benoit/Seth Smith?

I don't know that they will be in a hurry to trade Benoit now.

I agree with Tom that the bar just got set pretty high. Soria, Uehara, Benoit, Pappelbon and Andrew Miller are the five guys out there that I think would significantly alter Detroit's chances in October. I know I put a list of A,B,C prospects in the "Trades" thread. I see 1A, 2B's and 1C going for any of those guys. More than likely all of those teams would seek 2A's because they know we're up against it and there is going to be competition.

The closer to July 30th the cheaper the impending UFA's should get. Not cracking the atom but the Angels sure weren't gonna get caught without a chair when the music stopped.

 

[Rebbiv]

Top prospect and 4 other very young guys. It makes sense for SD.

Gott, 21, has split this season between Single-A Lake Elsinore and Double-A San Antonio. In 39 combined relief outings, he is 2-4 with 16 saves and a 3.56 ERA.

He was chosen as a midseason California League All-Star.

Lindsey, a 22-year-old second baseman, was the No. 37 pick by the Angels in the 2010 draft. In four-plus minor league seasons campaigns, he has batted .289 with 43 home runs and 209 RBI.

He was rated as the Angels' top prospect by Baseball America.

Alvarez, 23, has gone 7-4 with five saves in two-plus minor league seasons.

The 20-year-old Rondon was signed as an international free agent in January 2011. The Venezuelan infielder has played in 245 minor league games, batting .300 with 146 runs and 116 RBI.

Morris, 22, has appeared in 28 games -- 18 starts -- in the Angels system, going 7-6 with a 3.43 ERA.

It was Street and Gott for the other 4.

Taylor Lindsey career minor 15.8 PA/BB suggest is isn't anything special.

R.J. Alvarez is a reliever pitcher who averages over 4 walks a game. In 3 seasons, he barely has 100 Innings Pitched.

Elliot Morris is a starter in his 2nd season and also walks over 4 a game with a career 1.31 WHIP. He is more in line as a reliever long term.

Jose Rondon actually is the one with the most upside.



Quite frankly, LAA didn't give up anything that DET couldn't have to get Street and Gott.

 

[Rebbiv]

I don't know that they will be in a hurry to trade Benoit now.

I agree with Tom that the bar just got set pretty high. Soria, Uehara, Benoit, Pappelbon and Andrew Miller are the five guys out there that I think would significantly alter Detroit's chances in October. I know I put a list of A,B,C prospects in the "Trades" thread. I see 1A, 2B's and 1C going for any of those guys. More than likely all of those teams would seek 2A's because they know we're up against it and there is going to be competition.

The closer to July 30th the cheaper the impending UFA's should get. Not cracking the atom but the Angels sure weren't gonna get caught without a chair when the music stopped.

I totally disagree with that statement. I think the perception is that it was high. But there isn't a single player that LAA traded that I wished DET acquired, except Rondon. And with DET, he would have to change positions because SS is blocked by Suarez and Iggy.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

I totally disagree with that statement. I think the perception is that it was high. But there isn't a single player that LAA traded that I wished DET acquired, except Rondon. And with DET, he would have to change positions because SS is blocked by Suarez and Iggy.

That's fair. The sheer quantity of players makes it appear like more. Looking at the talent involved I agree. I stand by the statement in that Detroit has about the same players as some of its primary trade assets, if we make the same type of move (i.e., Soria) the chances that a prospect we care about is high.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

It was Street and Gott for the other 4.

Taylor Lindsey career minor 15.8 PA/BB suggest is isn't anything special.

R.J. Alvarez is a reliever pitcher who averages over 4 walks a game. In 3 seasons, he barely has 100 Innings Pitched.

Elliot Morris is a starter in his 2nd season and also walks over 4 a game with a career 1.31 WHIP. He is more in line as a reliever long term.

Jose Rondon actually is the one with the most upside.



Quite frankly, LAA didn't give up anything that DET couldn't have to get Street and Gott.

Please tell me what your equivalent package in Detroit players would have been, it seems you have only told me that the guys we have aren't desired by other teams.

 

[tomdalton22]

It was Street and Gott for the other 4.

Taylor Lindsey career minor 15.8 PA/BB suggest is isn't anything special.

R.J. Alvarez is a reliever pitcher who averages over 4 walks a game. In 3 seasons, he barely has 100 Innings Pitched.

Elliot Morris is a starter in his 2nd season and also walks over 4 a game with a career 1.31 WHIP. He is more in line as a reliever long term.

Jose Rondon actually is the one with the most upside.



Quite frankly, LAA didn't give up anything that DET couldn't have to get Street and Gott.

I misunderstood...I thought it was a 5 for 1

 

[gotime909]

So all associated with baseball does this..it's a shitty move and won't help. How many games to you think they get the win because of Street over their current, now former closer? 1?

In a 7 game series that 1 game can be a pretty big deal.

 

[Rebbiv]

Please tell me what your equivalent package in Detroit players would have been, it seems you have only told me that the guys we have aren't desired by other teams.

When did I say our players aren't desired by other teams?


All I said is based on walk rates (both position players and pitchers), we don't have a lot that I am excited about. Even Castellanos didn't have an above average walk rate in the minors.

LAA's package included a lot of AA players.



My package would center around Devon Travis and Corey Knebel. You could probably add Moya and someone like Matt Crouse. Substitute Ray with Crouse, and you could get Street and Seth Smith.

 

[Mitchrapp]

In a 7 game series that 1 game can be a pretty big deal.

Sure but the closer usually isn't the culprit. And unless it's Mo Rivera I doubt the best from the worst is a huge difference.

 

[tigermud]

anytime you're ready DD pull the string, one or the other will do. one or the other

 

[spockmaster]

Sure but the closer usually isn't the culprit. And unless it's Mo Rivera I doubt the best from the worst is a huge difference.

Its generally not. Our problem is that aside from Joba, our entire bullpen is horseshit. Trading for a band-aid reliever, even a good one, isn't going to help much, which is why I'm against it.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

When did I say our players aren't desired by other teams?


All I said is based on walk rates (both position players and pitchers), we don't have a lot that I am excited about. Even Castellanos didn't have an above average walk rate in the minors.

LAA's package included a lot of AA players.



My package would center around Devon Travis and Corey Knebel. You could probably add Moya and someone like Matt Crouse. Substitute Ray with Crouse, and you could get Street and Seth Smith.

"We have no real value, unless we part with starting pitching. Our positional prospects, sans Travis are suspect at best. While a players like Moya might be included, he would only be the filler piece." That is a quote from the "trades" thread. Not a mention of walk rate.

I was willing to trade Castellanos last season and primarily because of his walk rate in the minors so we're not that far apart though we don't see eye to eye.

*Knebel* - I don't see him being valued right now. He is far from ready even though the Tigers are trying to pretend he is. Devon Travis isn't screaming future all-star. I would contend San Diego would rather get McCann and Perez. But that's conjecture. Thank you for putting names with your idea.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

Sure but the closer usually isn't the culprit. And unless it's Mo Rivera I doubt the best from the worst is a huge difference.

Who is talking about a closer to close?

This team needs a 7th inning pitcher. Getting another scrub ass motherfucker like Veras is stupid. They need a closer but not to close. They need a guy that can get left and right out and have the stones to do it on the road in Oakland.

That is an odd comment and easily disproven.

Huston Street has blown one save Nathan has blown five. That's a difference of four games potentially in the loss column because the closer didn't close in half a season. It was said earlier, relievers may not win that many games for you but they sure can lose them.

If I dig in to your post history I'll find you supported Valverde because he was just a closer and what he did didn't really matter, right?

 

[tigermud]

anytime you're ready DD pull the string, one or the other will do. one or the other

Actually the hell with one or the other DD needs to get both right fkcing now

 

[jdeb]

With what we have in the minor's, were looking at a Chase Headley type of player and/or a Jimmy Rollins. As far as a bullpen guy, don't get your hopes up as the cupboard is pretty bare as there are multiple teams in need of relievers. Casty is looking a little wore down and Suarez is leveling off to what he actually is.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Who is talking about a closer to close?

This team needs a 7th inning pitcher. Getting another scrub ass motherfucker like Veras is stupid. They need a closer but not to close. They need a guy that can get left and right out and have the stones to do it on the road in Oakland.

That is an odd comment and easily disproven.

Huston Street has blown one save Nathan has blown five. That's a difference of four games potentially in the loss column because the closer didn't close in half a season. It was said earlier, relievers may not win that many games for you but they sure can lose them.

If I dig in to your post history I'll find you supported Valverde because he was just a closer and what he did didn't really matter, right?

It hasn't nothing about being a closer..When you mention Street and Nathan, the reason why you don't trade for one, or any RP. Because he can have a great track record and you just don't know what you're going get it. I'm all for signing free agent RP but trading..no. Not as the main piece.

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

It hasn't nothing about being a closer..When you mention Street and Nathan, the reason why you don't trade for one, or any RP. Because he can have a great track record and you just don't know what you're going get it. I'm all for signing free agent RP but trading..no. Not as the main piece.

The same can be said for ANY position on the field in the middle of a season. Baseball history is riddled with examples of OF'ers who stopped hitting or started hitting or hit at the same rate. Same for pitchers - starters or relievers. I won't even give an example because then I'd be compelled to give 100.

It is nearing the end of July - the Free Agent market is dried up, the only way to fix a team is through trade. "Not as the main piece" that is the most absurd concept that can be proposed and I'm glad you said it again. The team's biggest need is a closer - hell even Nathan has said he would understand. But YOU say "No, it can't be the main piece of the trade." So does that mean go get a throw-in closer as part of a trade for a position that isn't of need?

If the team is already talent deficient in terms of trade pieces then you will only get less reliever if you try to address another area at the same time. You will get a total shit pitcher if you get a reliever that isn't "the main piece" of the trade. Why do you think this team needs another shitty relief pitcher? Or do you think today's Bullpen looks like it is ready to help deliver a championship in October?

I won't post the links of every sportswriter in this town and on ESPN talking about how the Tigers need to trade for a top-end reliever. The island of "most" is depopulating every day. I don't use them because I've advocated getting one more front-line reliever since they let Benoit walk. Relievers decide more games than you (and many) give credit. Baseball puts an inordinate amount of importance on the first five and the last inning of a baseball game. 1/3 of the game is often covered by "unimportant" pitchers.

If your pen doesn't have three guys you can trust going in to the 7th your chances in close games (Playoffs) are greatly diminished. The Tigers have .5 (Chamberlain - who I don't trust in the 9th but I'll count as one if we're talking 7th or 8th).

 

[SouthOfMackinac]

They need Soria and Andrew Miller. Today.

Devon Travis, Josh Turley, Steven Moya, James McCann, Tyler Collins, Corey Knebel and Hernan Perez. I'm sure other teams want Jake Thompson included in the mix as well.

Soria has a contract the Tigers could live with in 2015 (7M team option). Miller is UFA but has absurd numbers this season.