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Tigers sign SP Mike Pelfry and release him 3/30/2017

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Hi Tom, do we know each other? No.
Cause, you don't know that I am "less qualified" to evaluate Buster Olney's article. And actually I am FAR more qualified to do that than some sports reporter is qualified to talk about the finances of the Tigers without citing people with more expertise.

As for arguing because I disagree with him, yes of course, I am not going to argue with him if I agree with him!
It isn't homerism, it is logic, now if he'd said it about some other team I wouldn't have noticed.

Actually as I think about it, he is protecting the "tank" philosophy of building a team (stink for a few years, shed payroll, build a farm and talent, compete, sell off and tank). This is a cycle that supposedly only a select few teams have managed to avoid. Poor cities, lesser organizations are supposed to be subject to it while the Yankees, etc. are not, and it is a bit of a scandal brewing right now.

Anyone want to refute the facts of the Tigers financial situation versus the Phillies' situation?

The Phillies owners are losers, Ilitch is richer and a 100 times better at owning a sports franchise.
The Phillies market has some greater challenges than the Tigers' market: they are surrounded by the Nats, the Os, Yankees, Mets, all within a few hours of them, the Tigers only competitor for viewers and fans that is similarly close is the Tribe.
The Phillies talented expensive players are not as good as the Tigers" talent.
The Phillies organization is not as good as the Tigers (Dombrowski was good, Avila seems even better).

These are the terms of the debate. These are things I might be wrong about: maybe the market has a larger population and so the nearby competition doesn't matter. Maybe the Phillies owners are better than Ilitch, maybe... etc.

As for my qualifications: I am not claiming authority, I am citing evidence (which Olney doesn't really do; that is his error he relies on his own ethos, which is insufficient, rather than gathering sufficient logos/evidence to prove his point). I do not have to be an expert on baseball to make that observation, I just need to have noticed it and understand how ethos and logos work, which any college educated person should be able to do.

Here's a guy that agrees with Olney about the Upton signing.

"All-Star outfielder Justin Upton has a new contract in the form of a six-year, $132.75 million deal from the Detroit Tigers,and the deal itself is certainly interesting. Why is that? Well, though it has its perks, it?s still a bit of a head-scratcher.

First of all, the money involved in the deal regarding Upton himself is NOT an issue. Upton is 28 years old, in the prime of his career and is coming off a fairly decent 2015 campaign with the San Diego Padres. The young right-fielder hit .251 with 26 home runs, 81 RBI and 19 steals for the Friars last year, with the dip in batting average likely attributed to playing in cavernous Petco Park.

Upton?s batting average could very well take another hit now that he?s headed to another pitcher?s haven in Comerica Park, but this is where the ups of the contract really begin to take light. His deal with the Tigers includes an opt-out clause for the second year so that, in case things don?t work out in the Motor City for one reason or another, Upton can hit the open market once again at age 30 and still in a prime position to earn a lot of money. Throw in a limited no-trade clause, and it?s even more attractive.

Thus, for someone like Upton, who has a .271 lifetime batting average and .352 OBP with 190 career home runs and four All-Star selections, $22.1 million a year is actually a solid value. In fact, some may call it a steal.

But no contract is perfect, and in the case of the Detroit Tigers, this was not the deal that the team needed to be handing out. Upton?s contract pushes next year?s payroll, per Spotrac, up to about $176 million and while that is below the luxury tax threshold of $189 million, arbitration has yet to be factored in and Detroit has a number of questionable contracts on the books already.

Without going into too much detail, here?s the rundown. 37-year-old designated hitter Victor Martinez is owed $54 million over the next three years and batted a career-worst .245 with 11 home runs and 64 RBI in 2015, righty starter Anibal Sanchez is due $32 million in guaranteed money over the next two years and was uncharacteristically bad in 2015 with a 10-10 record and 4.99 ERA and Justin Verlander, though the staff ace, is making $112 million over the next four seasons and has started to show signs of breaking down over the past two, even though he did bounce back nicely in 2015 after missing the first two and a half months of the season with an injury.

Which brings the conversation to this. The Tigers let longtime GM Dave Dombrowski go last August as the team was in the midst of a major collapse and replaced him with longtime assistant Al Avila. Dombrowski?s tenure over his final seasons with the team was defined by hefty contracts given out to hitters and the occasional pitcher. To give a better idea, as of now, $95.2 million of Detroit?s projected payroll right now is factored into hitting. Once the team either reaches a deal or goes to arbitration with outfielder J.D. Martinez, who hit .282 with 38 home runs and 102 RBI last season, that number is going to go up.

Now look at Detroit?s projected starting rotation of Verlander, Sanchez, newcomer Jordan Zimmermann, Mike Pelfrey and youngster Daniel Norris. Verlander and Sanchez?s respective issues have already been addressed, but what about those of Zimmermann and Pelfrey? Granted, Zimmermann is 29 and inked a five-year, $110 million deal when he easily could have landed a bigger deal, but he?s still a pitcher coming over from the National League?s Washington Nationals and no matter how one may slice it, the American League tends to be more offense-oriented and Zimmermann can at times be prone to giving up home runs, having allowed 24 last season.

In terms of Pelfrey, he signed a two-year, $16 million deal and went 11-27 with a 4.94 ERA in three years pitching for the Minnesota Twins at pitcher-friendly Target Field. Moving on.

Thus, what do the monies spent by the Tigers in recent years suggest? Simply that the team feels spending money equals a championship when that is not the case. Detroit had a payroll of $162.2 million last year and finished dead last in the AL Central Division with a record of 74-87, paying a grand total of just under $2.2 million per win.

And who won the World Series last year? None other than the Tigers? AL Central rival Kansas City Royals, who won 95 games with a payroll of $128.6 million and paid $1.35 million per win. More importantly, the team was built with a strong emphasis on pitching, with nearly half of the payroll tied up in just that. Amongst the hitters, not a single one had more than 25 home runs last year.

Which brings up the most important point about Upton?s contract. While it may be great for him, it?s not necessarily what the Tigers should have been put available money towards. Detroit ranked 28th in pitching with a team ERA of 4.64 last year and are in such a position that all money in free agency needs to be spent on upgrading the pitching staff, like Avila did in signing Zimmerman, and adding all other bats need to be given big money on an as-needed basis, especially with star first baseman Miguel Cabrera about to turn 33 this season and due $240 million in guaranteed money over the next eight years and the Royals just having won a World Series on pure pitching and small-ball as opposed to outscoring everybody by a massive margin.

More importantly, consider the opt-out clause that Upton has after the second year. Suppose he plays terribly over that stretch? With $132.6 million remaining on that deal, he?ll have little incentive to opt-out which means that the Tigers could have to sell low on him in a trade, a situation in which nobody wins. Sure, he?ll probably opt out, the the Tigers need to prepare for the possibility that he won?t whether he turns out to be a great signing or a bust.

Anyway, the long and short of it is this. With a pitching rotation whose major player is starting to break down, one unproven in the AL and the others pure question marks, the last thing the Tigers should have done is hand out a massive contract to a hitter.

The ups are that the contract are great for Upton, a young hitter just entering his prime, but the downs are that the Tigers just can?t seem to get the message that a powerful lineup alone doesn?t win a World Series.
 
Now that is a well reasoned argument. I think it is pessimistic and it can be argued against, etc.
Look at how well he is using stats and evidence to make his case. The same sort of case made about the Tigers' financial situation would be compelling.

I disagree a bit for a few reasons.

But Olney's insider blog, which I had seen somewhere, is hardly that rigorous or detailed of an assessment of the Tigers' financial situation (to be so it would have to talk about the business side in the same way this piece talks about baseball stats).

Ultimately, the proof is in the pudding. Did the Tigers biff it with Upton? Is there something no one sees in Pelfrey? Will Norris emerge? Will JV be better than ever? Will V-Mart mash like its is 2014? Will JD mash like it is 2015? Will Miggy mash like he is Miggy?
And the Tigers payroll is certainly a challenge, though not as much if their owner wants to keep spending north of $200mil.

My simple point has been to refute the argument that the Tigers must fall, that the window must close because it is passed on like common wisdom without acknowledging that the Tigers are NOT the same team as other teams. If Ilitch wants to keep spending $200mil, and if Al Avila is able to rebuild the farm system and if his analytics guys don't suck, the Tigers might keep right on rolling.

Now, Ilitch won't live forever, but maybe his family keeps on spending to honor his legacy or something, who knows.

But until some of the factors change (and JV's injury stuff was a significant change, but if it is over it isn't), logically "windows closing" arguments do not seem (at least on their face) to be valid.

If someone digs in and comes up with a better argument than I've seen anywhere, that will mean something.
 
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This is the first part of Buster Olney's post. I don't have insider so I don't have access to the entire thing. It isn't too far off what the other article states.


Justin Upton is in the midst of what has been an excellent Major League Baseball career -- he already has 190 homers before his 29th birthday -- and after a very good 2015 season, he just got a $132.75 million deal from the Detroit Tigers, a merger of player and team that was formally announced Wednesday.

It's a tremendous contract for him, and it wouldn't have been possible without the aggressiveness of Tigers owner Mike Ilitch, who has demonstrated time and again that he is willing to take money from would-be profits -- money out of his own pocket, really -- and spend it because he wants to win. Ilitch has been a great owner for the Tigers, providing a product that inspires the team's fan base.

But there's no getting around this reality: The signing of Upton by the Tigers to this massive contract, right now, is just bad baseball business.

Add the Upton contract to the many others with future payroll obligations that have stacked up for the Tigers, including Miguel Cabrera's, Justin Verlander's, Victor Martinez's and Anibal Sanchez's. Almost all of the sport's teams are getting younger, yet the Tigers are getting older. The fine print:

Cabrera, who will be 33 in April, is signed through the 2023 season, for another $240 million.

Verlander, who turns 33 next month, is signed for another four years at $28 million annually.

Pitcher Jordan Zimmermann turns 30 in May, and he is signed for $110 million over the next five years.

Martinez, 37, is signed for $18 million annually for the next three seasons.

Sanchez, 32, is signed for $16.8 million per year in 2016 and 2017, with a $16 million team option or $5 million buyout for 2018.

Upton, who turns 30 in August 2017, is signed through 2021, at more than $22 million per year.

So long as Ilitch steps in to add whopper contracts without regard to payroll, this has a chance to work. Eventually, the credit-card bill will come due. If and when the Tigers get in line with the usual way teams run their businesses, once that day of reckoning arrives, the team will have to dig itself out of a Grand Canyon-sized hole of contracts.
 
Cameron Maybin, added in a trade with the Braves, is likely to platoon with Anthony Gose in center. Mike Aviles and Jarrod Saltalamacchia bring 17 years of experience to the bench, and Mike Pelfrey adds stability to the back of the rotation.

giphy.gif

All true ....did you want me to pat you on the back for something ? Not sure your point
 
According to the National Center for Biotechnology Information, at the U.S. National Library of Medicine, the average attention span of a human being has dropped from 12 seconds in 2000 to 8 seconds in 2013. This is one second less than the attention span of a goldfish.
 
All true ....did you want me to pat you on the back for something ? Not sure your point

It's all pablum that hides the bitter essence of rostering three players (and I'm not sold on Saltalamacchia) who will contribute virtually nothing toward the success of this team offensively and evades the fact that Aviles and Romine are like having two punters on a football roster.

"Mike Aviles and Jarrod Saltalamacchia bring 17 years of experience to the bench, and Mike Pelfrey adds stability to the back of the rotation."

What does this even mean?
 
It's all pablum that hides the bitter essence of rostering three players (and I'm not sold on Saltalamacchia) who will contribute virtually nothing toward the success of this team offensively and evades the fact that Aviles and Romine are like having two punters on a football roster.

"Mike Aviles and Jarrod Saltalamacchia bring 17 years of experience to the bench, and Mike Pelfrey adds stability to the back of the rotation."

What does this even mean?

Translation: Aviles and Saltamacchia have a total of 17 years in MLB but they have mostly sucked and Mike Pelfrey adds a consistently crappy pitcher to the back end of the rotation.
 
For the money I would have rather gambled with Fister, he is seeking 2 years 22m from what I've read. I bet we could have got him for 2 years 19-20m. Probably even 18m with possible bonuses. Both have had injury issues but at least Fister has been good at different points in his career. More than one can say about Pelfrey.

Fister to Astos 1 year 7m
 
According to the National Center for Biotechnology Information, at the U.S. National Library of Medicine, the average attention span of a human being has dropped from 12 seconds in 2000 to 8 seconds in 2013. This is one second less than the attention span of a goldfish.

Yes, but can a goldfish tweet a selfy?
 
Fister 1 year for $7m or Pelfrey 2 years @ $16M

Career stats

Fister 3.42 era, 1.21 WHIP, 3.44 SO/Walk ratio
Pelfrey 4.52 era, 1.482 WHIP, 1.62 SO/Walk ratio

hmm, it's a tough call but I think I'll take the Fister deal
 
Fister 1 year for $7m or Pelfrey 2 years @ $16M

Career stats

Fister 3.42 era, 1.21 WHIP, 3.44 SO/Walk ratio
Pelfrey 4.52 era, 1.482 WHIP, 1.62 SO/Walk ratio

hmm, it's a tough call but I think I'll take the Fister deal

You're such a hater! Probably not even a real fan!
 
This is the first part of Buster Olney's post. I don't have insider so I don't have access to the entire thing. It isn't too far off what the other article states.


Justin Upton is in the midst of what has been an excellent Major League Baseball career -- he already has 190 homers before his 29th birthday -- and after a very good 2015 season, he just got a $132.75 million deal from the Detroit Tigers, a merger of player and team that was formally announced Wednesday.

It's a tremendous contract for him, and it wouldn't have been possible without the aggressiveness of Tigers owner Mike Ilitch, who has demonstrated time and again that he is willing to take money from would-be profits -- money out of his own pocket, really -- and spend it because he wants to win. Ilitch has been a great owner for the Tigers, providing a product that inspires the team's fan base.

But there's no getting around this reality: The signing of Upton by the Tigers to this massive contract, right now, is just bad baseball business.

Add the Upton contract to the many others with future payroll obligations that have stacked up for the Tigers, including Miguel Cabrera's, Justin Verlander's, Victor Martinez's and Anibal Sanchez's. Almost all of the sport's teams are getting younger, yet the Tigers are getting older. The fine print:

Cabrera, who will be 33 in April, is signed through the 2023 season, for another $240 million.

Verlander, who turns 33 next month, is signed for another four years at $28 million annually.

Pitcher Jordan Zimmermann turns 30 in May, and he is signed for $110 million over the next five years.

Martinez, 37, is signed for $18 million annually for the next three seasons.

Sanchez, 32, is signed for $16.8 million per year in 2016 and 2017, with a $16 million team option or $5 million buyout for 2018.

Upton, who turns 30 in August 2017, is signed through 2021, at more than $22 million per year.

So long as Ilitch steps in to add whopper contracts without regard to payroll, this has a chance to work. Eventually, the credit-card bill will come due. If and when the Tigers get in line with the usual way teams run their businesses, once that day of reckoning arrives, the team will have to dig itself out of a Grand Canyon-sized hole of contracts.


Ilitch is now worth $5.5 bil (5,500,000,000 or about 25 times the Tigers current payroll), he could lose a massive amount of money for a LONG time and not really miss it. As in dozens of "Grand Canyon-sized hole of contracts." It wouldn't have shocked me if he'd given Avila the instructions to go out and buy the series, I know I would've if I were him, sign everybody. Win it every year until you die. Starting rotations of Price, Greinke, Cueto, Zimm, and JV. I mean, Ilitch could do that, throw away $150mil for 10 years, and still die one of the wealthiest men alive.

Also, there are very good business reasons why Ilitch and the Tigers need to spend money to make money right now.
There is the ever present need to increase the team's value to balance the books.
There is the need to go into the new TV contract negotiation in a strong position.
All of which will go a long way to helping (if Avila can rebuild the farm system) ensure that baseball is alive and well in Detroit for years to come.

Finally, again, the Tigers have bet that their long term stars (Miggy and JV--V-Mart was a bad move, pure and simple, overpaid, aging, etc.) are singular talents capable of doing what other stars can't or only the truly great players can do (that is be competitive late into their career.
And they think they know better than Buster Olney how their current players are going to perform this year.

But, again the rest of that sort of conversation gets into weeds as does the why Olney's analysis of the Tigers business is wrong -- what isn't far in the weeds is that he clearly isn't qualified to evaluate that in the same way he is fully qualified to evaluate the Upton signing from a baseball stand point.
 
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Ilitch is now worth $5.5 bil (5,500,000,000 or about 25 times the Tigers current payroll), he could lose a massive amount of money for a LONG time and not really miss it. As in dozens of "Grand Canyon-sized hole of contracts." It wouldn't have shocked me if he'd given Avila the instructions to go out and buy the series, I know I would've if I were him, sign everybody. Win it every year until you die. Starting rotations of Price, Greinke, Cueto, Zimm, and JV. I mean, Ilitch could do that, throw away $150mil for 10 years, and still die one of the wealthiest men alive.

Also, there are very good business reasons why Ilitch and the Tigers need to spend money to make money right now.
There is the ever present need to increase the team's value to balance the books.
There is the need to go into the new TV contract negotiation in a strong position.
All of which will go a long way to helping (if Avila can rebuild the farm system) ensure that baseball is alive and well in Detroit for years to come.

Finally, again, the Tigers have bet that their long term stars (Miggy and JV--V-Mart was a bad move, pure and simple, overpaid, aging, etc.) are singular talents capable of doing what other stars can't or only the truly great players can do (that is be competitive late into their career.
And they think they know better than Buster Olney how their current players are going to perform this year.

But, again the rest of that sort of conversation gets into weeds as does the why Olney's analysis of the Tigers business is wrong -- what isn't far in the weeds is that he clearly isn't qualified to evaluate that in the same way he is fully qualified to evaluate the Upton signing from a baseball stand point.


Them betting on 3 stars to all produce late into their 30's is a terrible bet!
 
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Ilitch is now worth $5.5 bil (5,500,000,000 or about 25 times the Tigers current payroll), he could lose a massive amount of money for a LONG time and not really miss it. As in dozens of "Grand Canyon-sized hole of contracts." It wouldn't have shocked me if he'd given Avila the instructions to go out and buy the series, I know I would've if I were him, sign everybody. Win it every year until you die. Starting rotations of Price, Greinke, Cueto, Zimm, and JV. I mean, Ilitch could do that, throw away $150mil for 10 years, and still die one of the wealthiest men alive.

Also, there are very good business reasons why Ilitch and the Tigers need to spend money to make money right now.
There is the ever present need to increase the team's value to balance the books.
There is the need to go into the new TV contract negotiation in a strong position.
All of which will go a long way to helping (if Avila can rebuild the farm system) ensure that baseball is alive and well in Detroit for years to come.

Finally, again, the Tigers have bet that their long term stars (Miggy and JV--V-Mart was a bad move, pure and simple, overpaid, aging, etc.) are singular talents capable of doing what other stars can't or only the truly great players can do (that is be competitive late into their career.
And they think they know better than Buster Olney how their current players are going to perform this year.

But, again the rest of that sort of conversation gets into weeds as does the why Olney's analysis of the Tigers business is wrong -- what isn't far in the weeds is that he clearly isn't qualified to evaluate that in the same way he is fully qualified to evaluate the Upton signing from a baseball stand point.


You certainly like to pontificate.
 
It wouldn't have shocked me if he'd given Avila the instructions to go out and buy the series, I know I would've if I were him, sign everybody. Win it every year until you die. Starting rotations of Price, Greinke, Cueto, Zimm, and JV.

And this guy seems to think he is more qualified to analyze the business side of baseball than Buster Olney?
 
2015 Fister

w/Lobaton as his catcher (32.3 IP)

3.34 ERA 1.24 WHIP .258 OPP BAVG .321 OBP .323 SLG .644 OPS 138.0 PA/HR

w/Ramos as his catcher (70.6 IP)

4.58 ERA 1.47 WHIP .311 OPP BAVG .348 OBP .516 SLG .864 OPS 23.9 PA/HR


I will also point out that just once in 32.3 IP with Lobaton did a hitter reach base on an error, while it happened 7 times in 70.3 IP with Ramos. That is a strong indication the defense was poor when Ramos was catching. It might be a coincidence, but I am not sold that it is. At $7 Mil, Fister is a bargain.
 
The Astros have announced the signing of righty Doug Fister to a one-year deal. The PSI Sports Management client will receive a $7MM guarantee in the contract, which includes incentives that can boost its total value to $12MM, Chris Cotillo of SB Nation

Obviously if he hits the incentives , i would assume that means he had a good year so 12 million wouldnt be all that bad . Still alot for a back end guy though .
 
The Astros have announced the signing of righty Doug Fister to a one-year deal. The PSI Sports Management client will receive a $7MM guarantee in the contract, which includes incentives that can boost its total value to $12MM, Chris Cotillo of SB Nation

Obviously if he hits the incentives , i would assume that means he had a good year so 12 million wouldnt be all that bad . Still alot for a back end guy though .


If he hits his incentives and does get the $12 Mil it means he performed like he can, a solid #2. And at $12 Mil, that would be a bargain.

FYI...if you consider Fister a "back end guy", then Pelfrey must be "inside the anus guy".
 
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