Tigers vs. redsox Game Thread April 8

[Thumb]

Sorry, I love Victor Martinez and he was outstanding last year behind Cabrera, but if you polled 32 MLB Managers all 32 would rather have to pitch to Martinez than Fielder. He's just a better overall hitter than Martinez and has the track record of power and smart hitting.

No.

He's a better power hitter.


The poll 32 managers comment is pure speculation, and has 0 basis in facts.

 

[motownwebguy]

Prince is already above .180, he's no Dunn.

C'mon Mitch!
AVG is probably rated #5 when rating hitters.

 

[spockmaster]

Not that I dont love VMart, but Fielder is unquestionably a better overall hitter. He has a higher career OBP, SLG, OPS, walk rate, ISO, wOBA, wRC+, and had nearly double VMart's fWAR last year (5.5 vs 2.9) despite his fielding. The ONLY stats he trails VMart in that I can find are avg (by 20 points, but who cares because his OBP and wOBA are higher), strikeout rate, and a slightly better BB/K ratio. To say that Fielder is not a better overall hitter than VMart is just ignoring the facts.

 

[motownwebguy]

Not that I dont love VMart, but Fielder is unquestionably a better overall hitter. He has a higher career OBP, SLG, OPS, walk rate, ISO, wOBA, wRC+, and had nearly double VMart's fWAR last year (5.5 vs 2.9) despite his fielding. The ONLY stats he trails VMart in that I can find are avg (by 20 points, but who cares because his OBP and wOBA are higher), strikeout rate, and a slightly better BB/K ratio. To say that Fielder is not a better overall hitter than VMart is just ignoring the facts.

I always throw lifetime stats out the window, when comparing Martinez' 2011 season with three games of Fielder's. Surely I don't compare anything Martinez did in Cleveland and Boston. with what he's done as a Tiger.

It's just not fair to include Boston and Cleveland. Hitters change year-to-year. Lineups change year-year. Player destinations change time-to-time, ballparks....etc...etc.

One of many reasons why I'm not a big stats guy on players with 3-4 teams in a span of 10 years. Not big on stat gurus like Bill James either. So many intangibles involve this game that guys like James often leave-out.

 

[spockmaster]

...wow. With that logic, you might as well set fire to Cooperstown and erase all baseball records. You can't just apply it to players who move a lot, because lineup and ballpark changes affect players who stay on the same team for long periods or even their whole careers too. Who cares what Babe Ruth did over his career, the lineups, hitters, and ballparks changed every year! Ridiculous.

 

[mjsb2]

I mentioned Adam because in the winter of 2010-2011, you were rooting for the Tigers to sign Dunn. So pardon me for questioning your analyst-ability.

Plus you are only 20 years-old. So I have the right to reserve your handicapping abilities. I have game tickets older than you. I have glove conditioner probably older than your father.

I may have sat next to your grandfather at Tiger Stadium.

We already know Prince has an elite bat.

 

[Thumb]

Not that I dont love VMart, but Fielder is unquestionably a better overall hitter. He has a higher career OBP, SLG, OPS, walk rate, ISO, wOBA, wRC+, and had nearly double VMart's fWAR last year (5.5 vs 2.9) despite his fielding. The ONLY stats he trails VMart in that I can find are avg (by 20 points, but who cares because his OBP and wOBA are higher), strikeout rate, and a slightly better BB/K ratio. To say that Fielder is not a better overall hitter than VMart is just ignoring the facts.

Those 3 highlighted are redundancies, walks are why Prince has a higher OBP, and add that to his better Slg. and his OPS is always going to be higher.

I already said Prince had better power, and draws more walks, which the the reason all 3 of those numbers are higher than Vmarts.

But Vmart is going to have more hits in less PA's than Fielder, and in the situation we were talking about, that's what is key, getting hits.

Prince .275 w/RISP, Vmart .319 w/RISP

As I said, Vmart is less likely to make an out in those situations also, especially since Prince strikes out at nearly double the rate Vmart does.

Prince is a better Slugger, Vmart is a better Hitter.

So no Spock, I was not ignoring any facts, I was making a distinction between a Slugger and a Hitter.

 

[Mitchrapp]

How many more hits vs how many more home runs. Figure out the difference in runs scored for Detroit. Plus, Prince plays more games an at a position, not a DH.

 

[biggunsbob]

Who cares... They are both Tigers... Too bad Victor won't be back till next year but it is a nice problem to have that our pitcher don't have to worry about pitching to either. Both are great hitters..

 

[Mitchrapp]

Who cares... They are both Tigers... Too bad Victor won't be back till next year but it is a nice problem to have that our pitcher don't have to worry about pitching to either. Both are great hitters..

Its a discussion Bob, that's all. No worries, eh?

 

[biggunsbob]

Ok Prince is a worth more to a team then victor... But its close..

OPs+
Prince 143
Victor 122

 

[mjsb2]

Ok Prince is a worth more to a team then victor... But its close..

OPs+
Prince 143
Victor 122

That's not close, at all, especially over a few thousand ABs.

 

[Thumb]

How many more hits vs how many more home runs. Figure out the difference in runs scored for Detroit. Plus, Prince plays more games an at a position, not a DH.

You're confusing the topic, position has nothing to do with it.

The idea mentioned was Prince offered so much more protection, that Cabrera was going to get more fastball as a result.

Both statements are false.

The protection Prince offers is probably about equal to what Vmart offered. Where Prince has a bigger power threat, Vmart was better at BA. w/RISP and is a tougher out.

And no matter who hits behind him, Miguel Cabrera is the scariest guy in the lineup, nobody is going to throw him a certain pitch because they are afraid of who's hitting behind him.

Cabrera will still get IBB'd a number of times this season, Prince is great, but he's not Cabrera, and managers would rather take chances with him, than Miguel.

 

[biggunsbob]

Games played
Victor 1149 In 10 years. Hits 1298. Runs 585. 2b 275. 3b 3. HR 143. BI 741
Prince 1001 In 8 years. Hits 1001. Runs 575. 2b 200. 3b 9. HR 232. BI 659.
Victor BB/K 457/533. OPS+ 122. Total Bases 2008...GDP 153. HBP 30. SF 53.
Prince BB/K 566/781. OPS+ 143 Total Bases 1915..GDP 82. HBP 79. SF40.

Victor .303/.370/.469.840
Prince .288/.390/.541/.931.

Wow just not a lot difference between to the two.. One hits a tad more doubles and singles then the other guy who hits a lot more homers.. I like this problem but I do see what Victor's season last year meant to the tigers but in my opinion Prince is a more dangerous hitter then Victor is..

 

[Mitchrapp]

You're confusing the topic, position has nothing to do with it.

The idea mentioned was Prince offered so much more protection, that Cabrera was going to get more fastball as a result.

Both statements are false.

The protection Prince offers is probably about equal to what Vmart offered. Where Prince has a bigger power threat, Vmart was better at BA. w/RISP and is a tougher out.

And no matter who hits behind him, Miguel Cabrera is the scariest guy in the lineup, nobody is going to throw him a certain pitch because they are afraid of who's hitting behind him.

Cabrera will still get IBB'd a number of times this season, Prince is great, but he's not Cabrera, and managers would rather take chances with him, than Miguel.

Dude, they threw a fastball in his wheelhouse in the 9th inning. He won't get as many IBB, because teams are more worried about the HR ball, not a possible single. As I pointed out earlier, Prince only had 2 at bats after an IBB in '11 with the MVP batting in front of him.

What does that tell ya?

 

[Mitchrapp]

Games played
Victor 1149 In 10 years. Hits 1298. Runs 585. 2b 275. 3b 3. HR 143. BI 741
Prince 1001 In 8 years. Hits 1001. Runs 575. 2b 200. 3b 9. HR 232. BI 659.
Victor BB/K 457/533. OPS+ 122. Total Bases 2008...GDP 153. HBP 30. SF 53.
Prince BB/K 566/781. OPS+ 143 Total Bases 1915..GDP 82. HBP 79. SF40.

Victor .303/.370/.469.840
Prince .288/.390/.541/.931.

Wow just not a lot difference between to the two.. One hits a tad more doubles and singles then the other guy who hits a lot more homers.. I like this problem but I do see what Victor's season last year meant to the tigers but in my opinion Prince is a more dangerous hitter then Victor is..

91 ops difference is pretty damn huge. A lot more than 15 points in average. Those numbers u posted aren't even close..

 

[Thumb]

Dude, they threw a fastball in his wheelhouse in the 9th inning. He won't get as many IBB, because teams are more worried about the HR ball, not a possible single. As I pointed out earlier, Prince only had 2 at bats after an IBB in '11 with the MVP batting in front of him.

What does that tell ya?

So anytime he see's a fastball, which btw is like 80% of pitches thrown, it's because they fear Prince?

As far as the IBB thing, lets wait and see.

P.S. Ryan Braun does not = Miguel Cabrera.

 

[biggunsbob]

Victor should have had a lot more Rbi's then 103 last year.. No one other the miggy was on base for him last year..
Victor 40 doubles and 12 homer's with 103 rbi's last year. VM had only 76 runs
Prince 36 doubles and 38 homers good for 120 rbi's... 95 runs.

You have to give the edge to Prince because of games played and lack of DL stints.

 

[biggunsbob]

91 ops difference is pretty damn huge. A lot more than 15 points in average. Those numbers u posted aren't even close..

19 ops+ difference is pretty big...I would much prefer to have prince up needing a homer over Victor.. But if we need a single then we need victor..

 

[Mitchrapp]

So anytime he see's a fastball, which btw is like 80% of pitches thrown, it's because they fear Prince?

As far as the IBB thing, lets wait and see.

P.S. Ryan Braun does not = Miguel Cabrera.

Of course he's not Miguel but he's pretty good. They just fear Prince more than Braun. And the same guys are at the top of the order as last year with the same guys at the bottom.