Ukraine

[Michchamp]

Whaddaboutism

He's an authoritarian.

right. and billionaires there are "oligarchs" but here they are good guys.

there is nothing authoritarian in American politics. we totally have a say in who we vote for and what laws our elected officials pass.

Just look at how Biden hadn't won a single state before the DNC essentially declared the primary over after South Carolina.

Or how GOP legislatures across the country are tackling that long term issue crippling American society or 2-3 transgender girls in each state competing in girls' sports. Just a "flawed" democracy... no top-down decrees forced on us here.

 

[Michchamp]

Whattaboutism = "don't point out to me the double standards and inconsistencies in my positions. that's mean. you're mean."

 

[Gulo Blue]

Whattaboutism = "don't point out to me the double standards and inconsistencies in my positions. that's mean. you're mean."

That's not what it means. It means past or existing bad things are no justification for more bad things.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of better.

 

[Gulo Blue]

right. and billionaires there are "oligarchs" but here they are good guys.

there is nothing authoritarian in American politics. we totally have a say in who we vote for and what laws our elected officials pass.

Just look at how Biden hadn't won a single state before the DNC essentially declared the primary over after South Carolina.

Or how GOP legislatures across the country are tackling that long term issue crippling American society or 2-3 transgender girls in each state competing in girls' sports. Just a "flawed" democracy... no top-down decrees forced on us here.

Ok, I'm convinced. Putin is in the right because of Bezos or whoever.

 

[Michchamp]

Ok, I'm convinced. Putin is in the right because of Bezos or whoever.

Do you at least acknowledge the reality that the US took advantage of the disorder in Ukraine in 2014 to put pro-US politicians in power there, and have been arming and goading Ukraine into taking a position hostile to Russia, engaging in acts discriminating against ethnic Russians within its borders, for the last EIGHT (8) years?

 

[Michchamp]

Look at it this way... we basically pushed a retarded kid (Ukraine) to fight the football team. and we did it by lying to him and handing him a knife to take to a proverbial gun fight.

And now, after a clumsy attempt to stab the football team failed, they're wailing on the retarded kid, while we stand by and cheer him on.

the rest of the world is like "Yeah, the football team is wrong for beating up this retarded kid in what's not a fair fight, but you're pretty fucked up for creating the situation. This is like the 3rd or 4th time you've done it. sick."

 

[Gulo Blue]

Do you at least acknowledge the reality that the US took advantage of the disorder in Ukraine in 2014 to put pro-US politicians in power there, and have been arming and goading Ukraine into taking a position hostile to Russia, engaging in acts discriminating against ethnic Russians within its borders, for the last EIGHT (8) years?

Took advantage assisting pro-US politics yes. Are we responsible for the attitudes of Ukrainians with respect to Russia? No. It's pretty normal to be hostile to authoritarians that want to subjugate you. Are we responsible for their attitudes towards Russians? Maybe, but I'm skeptical. Seems like they have their own history.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Look at it this way... we basically pushed a retarded kid (Ukraine) to fight the football team. and we did it by lying to him and handing him a knife to take to a proverbial gun fight.

And now, after a clumsy attempt to stab the football team failed, they're wailing on the retarded kid, while we stand by and cheer him on.

the rest of the world is like "Yeah, the football team is wrong for beating up this retarded kid in what's not a fair fight, but you're pretty fucked up for creating the situation. This is like the 3rd or 4th time you've done it. sick."

I'm trying to follow your analogy, but I need a refresher on the 2014 Ukrainian invasion of Russia.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Ok, I'm convinced. Putin is in the right because of Bezos or whoever.

Bezos don?t get to bomb kids.

He might not want to if he could.

 

[Michchamp]

I'm trying to follow your analogy, but I need a refresher on the 2014 Ukrainian invasion of Russia.

Their actions were toward separatists in the east of the country.

Yes, the Russians backed the separatists, but Ukraine was far from innocent in the fighting, and bears at least half the blame for keeping it going the last 8 years, if not more

They only signed the 2nd Minsk agreement (link) when things were going really REALLY badly for them.

 

[Michchamp]

Took advantage assisting pro-US politics yes. Are we responsible for the attitudes of Ukrainians with respect to Russia? No. It's pretty normal to be hostile to authoritarians that want to subjugate you. Are we responsible for their attitudes towards Russians? Maybe, but I'm skeptical. Seems like they have their own history.

you don't have to listen to me, I guess... other commentators I've read have said the Ukrainian public opinion was not as simple as you're making it out to be.

the Ukrainians I knew, esp. the older ones who had decent times in the USSR in the 60's and 70's were skeptical of the US, as they should have been. And didn't buy into the bullshit that becoming a NATO satellite was some panacea that would benefit them all.

The country is a power vacuum... it's all fertile & very productive farmland with almost no natural borders that's always been ruled by someone else. Most Ukrainians have a certain fatalistic cynicism toward power, and don't buy into other peoples' BS because they know they're always under someone's thumb.

Better the devil you know versus the one you don't, right? Russia was the devil they knew, and they spoke mutually intelligible languages with. Americans might as well be aliens to the avg. Ukrainian.

You're way out of your element assuming the avg. Ukrainian views America and our culture as all that great. or would prefer it unquestionably to what they have, their own customs, and their shared customs with Russia.

This is the kinda thinking that gets us in "Hey, the Iraqis were supposed to welcome us with open arms" situations

 

[tinselwolverine]

Look at it this way... we basically pushed a retarded kid (Ukraine) to fight the football team. and we did it by lying to him and handing him a knife to take to a proverbial gun fight.

And now, after a clumsy attempt to stab the football team failed, they're wailing on the retarded kid, while we stand by and cheer him on.

the rest of the world is like "Yeah, the football team is wrong for beating up this retarded kid in what's not a fair fight, but you're pretty fucked up for creating the situation. This is like the 3rd or 4th time you've done it. sick."

I don?t agree with you on points a lot of the time but you?re hyperbole is often pretty funny. Maybe you should find an illustrator ? assuming you?re not one yourself - to make political cartoons with.

I?m picturing a battalion of mongoloid looking faces operating short buses in attempt to repel the Russian offensive, maybe with uncle Sam in the background cheering them on.

 

[Michchamp]

I don?t agree with you on points a lot of the time but you?re hyperbole is often pretty funny. Maybe you should find an illustrator ? assuming you?re not one yourself - to make political cartoons with.

I?m picturing a battalion of mongoloid looking faces operating short buses in attempt to repel the Russian offensive, maybe with uncle Sam in the background cheering them on.

thanks. did you like the "you fucked up! you trusted us!" Animal House clip as another analogy?

i thought that was pretty on point. especially Flounder as Ukraine. Ukraine would be the Flounder of Europe (only... less likable than Flounder)

 

[Michchamp]

...

I?m picturing a battalion of mongoloid looking faces operating short buses in attempt to repel the Russian offensive, maybe with uncle Sam in the background cheering them on.

Uncle Sam could I guess be the US government. And he sold the Ukrainians the buses for $1,000,000,000 each, paid for by US taxpayers... who could be standing there beside Uncle Sam with a credulous look on their faces & their wallets open with a fly buzzing out of them.


$13.6 BILLION. You could hire a lot of good teachers, social workers, & fund a lot of free school lunches for that. Or upgrade ports? Or fix a lot of crumbling bridges? But let's instead foment a war and fund the side that has no chance in hell of winning... I assume a lot more than $13.6 BILLION has been spent on this so far, and much more to come.

 

[tinselwolverine]

thanks. did you like the "you fucked up! you trusted us!" Animal House clip as another analogy?

i thought that was pretty on point. especially Flounder as Ukraine. Ukraine would be the Flounder of Europe (only... less likable than Flounder)

You?re gonna love this.

Ben ?the whiny Jew (my Jewish wife?s term for him)? Shapiro sees it all pretty much EXACTLY the way you do.

And just when ya thought life couldn?t get any more ironical, huh?

 

[Gulo Blue]

You're way out of your element assuming the avg. Ukrainian views America and our culture as all that great. or would prefer it unquestionably to what they have, their own customs, and their shared customs with Russia.

Where are you getting all this from? I've never said anything about what they think of America. Never said they were innocent. I don't even think I've read anyone else trying to claim they prefer American culture.

 

[biggunsbob]

Task and Purpose Episode 6
Stalemate or Checkmate ?

https://youtu.be/REBRCVqnbiA

 

[Michchamp]

Where are you getting all this from? I've never said anything about what they think of America. Never said they were innocent. I don't even think I've read anyone else trying to claim they prefer American culture.

These quotes are from the first couple pages of the thread, where you were arguing with me that Ukraine's current mess, of being antagonistic to Russia was not because of US meddling, and you thought the avg. Ukrainian really wanted to be more aligned with the West, as though this was all a spontaneous decision in 2014 the US was not closely involved in sparking and leading along.


I omitted my comments b/c they were longer and more developed, versus your pithy responses... talk about "whataboutism"... I mean, pot-kettle-black here...

How much of it is us pushing vs. them wanting to be less under Russia's influence?

I don't mean to say anybody wants to be under American influence, just that they don't want to be beholden to Russia and NATO countries are the alternative. Not even the US. What on earth else are you supposed to pursue other than trade with nations to the west? As trade increases, and Russia acts to counteract it, NATO membership starts looking pretty good.

 

[Michchamp]

Hey, Tigermud... really expected you to be all over the Hunter Biden Laptop thing, now that the NY Times (w/other media outlets following suit) acknowledged that it was genuine, and not a "Russian disinformation campaign"

Guess you've been watching the wrong youtube videos lately...

In case you're wondering what I'm talking about... (here) (of course they paywalled it).

I think we should all just stop voting and pretending it matters. Any candidates that would actually attempt to govern the country (in my lifetime, that might only include Ralph Nader and Bernie Sanders), rather than simply serving as siphons to pump cash directly to corporate America while skimming off their cut, are weeded out by a corrupt primary process that decides who we can actually vote for.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Hey, Tigermud... really expected you to be all over the Hunter Biden Laptop thing, now that the NY Times (w/other media outlets following suit) acknowledged that it was genuine, and not a "Russian disinformation campaign"

Guess you've been watching the wrong youtube videos lately...

In case you're wondering what I'm talking about... (here) (of course they paywalled it).

I think we should all just stop voting and pretending it matters. Any candidates that would actually attempt to govern the country (in my lifetime, that might only include Ralph Nader and Bernie Sanders), rather than simply serving as siphons to pump cash directly to corporate America while skimming off their cut, are weeded out by a corrupt primary process that decides who we can actually vote for.

The DNC definitely porked Bernie over.

Unfortunately, the Republicans were not so successful in stopping Trump.

Oh, well, the world still spins.