What to do with Stafford

[detroit1811]

I haven't posted here in a long time, but have been lurking around from time to time. Either way with a new GM and HC in place the biggest question of the off-season is obviously what will happen at the QB position. Just wanted to see what everybody's thoughts were on what is going to happen.

I'll be the first to say I am a huge Stafford fan. I agree he is not a top 5 guy and he can be borderline top 10, but I am grateful he has been a Lion for as long as he has. The guy is as tough as they come and he never complains about the hand he has been given here. Everyday he just comes to work and gives his all. He will go down as one of personal favorite Lions of all time.

With that said this is the first year since he has been with us where trading him is a realistic option. He has two years left on his deal at a reasonable salary for QB's nowadays. On top of that he realistically still has 3-5 good years left. With that said he can be a very valuable commodity to a team that has a good roster needing a major upgrade at quarterback. I would say teams that fit that bill are Denver, Chicago, Indianapolis, New Orleans, New England, Pittsburgh, and Washington. Of those teams I would eliminate Chicago (division), New Orleans (bad cap situation), and Pittsburgh (bad cap situation. Of the rest I think Washington and Indianapolis probably make the most sense, but I wouldn't discount Denver and New England.

I think gauging his value is gonna be very tough. I think any trade would obviously start with a first round pick, but IMO if thats all we can get then I would hold onto him because to me thats just not enough. Obviously netting multiple first rounders would be the ideal scenario (think Jay Cutler), but Stafford's age and recent injury history probably takes that out of the equation. I do think he is worth a good bit more then when Sam Bradford got traded (1st and 4th). So maybe something along the lines of a 1st, future 2nd, and another 2nd this year(or less depending on where the 1st round pick is). Denver(9th), New England (15th), Washington (19th), and Indianapolis (21), all have first round picks.

The Washington Football Team have an extra 3rd rounder this year and have a good enough team, in a very weak division to be desperate enough to get a quarterback of Stafford's caliber. If they offered their first, both 3rd's and a 2nd next year, should we pull the trigger? Just food for thought and if anyone has any other thoughts feel free to share.

I personally think that if you look at our roster, I think it would take some excellent drafting and some very good bargains to hit in in FA to be competitive this coming year and maybe even the following. Would also take some big steps forwards from some young guys currently on the roster. If thats the case we may waste another 1-2 years of Stafford's career and when we are ready to compete he might be on his way out (also due another lucrative contract). Why not get the draft capital and start building a team alongside a rookie QB on a cheap contract. Maybe sign Winston for this year who should be cheap and is not a terrible option is you can get someone to cut back on his turnovers while we get this thing figured out.

 

[mhughes0021]

youd need multiple picks for it to be worth it when were going into a draft with only 5 picks in the first place. Your #7 would have to go to a qb if youre even entertaining the idea. Hes not worth 2 firsts and any team desperate enough to do 2 first dont have 2 firsts in this years draft. with 2 years left you can mayyybe get a 1st and 3rd?

The stats dont lie....hes a middle of the pack guy typically rated 15-20 with a couple outlier years that inch him close to the top 10.

At 7 you might have 1 top 4 QB left on the board out of lance, wilson or fields. If other teams know youre in the hunt you can easily be jumped by a number of teams including indy, pit, sf, den, NE that will all be looking for a new/future qb.

To your last point...i dont think its a full rebuild. I think if they buy in this roster can be competitive with a few minor tweaks. Im guessing the roster 100% didnt give 2 shits playing in 2020. It will take some investing in the defense this off season but they can field an improved D.

Flowers Shelton Griffen (FA)
Okwara (FA) Parsons (1st) Collins Reddick (FA)
Okudah Cisco (2nd) Walker Amani

It may take a glaring hole at WR in order to do it...but i think you have to in order to see real change. PS...there was a glaring hole at WR this year anyways with them under contract. Go target mid level WRs to replace and its an upgrade on the field already. Higgins and Ross come to mind.

 

[detroit1811]

youd need multiple picks for it to be worth it when were going into a draft with only 5 picks in the first place. Your #7 would have to go to a qb if youre even entertaining the idea. Hes not worth 2 firsts and any team desperate enough to do 2 first dont have 2 firsts in this years draft. with 2 years left you can mayyybe get a 1st and 3rd?

The stats dont lie....hes a middle of the pack guy typically rated 15-20 with a couple outlier years that inch him close to the top 10.

At 7 you might have 1 top 4 QB left on the board out of lance, wilson or fields. If other teams know youre in the hunt you can easily be jumped by a number of teams including indy, pit, sf, den, NE that will all be looking for a new/future qb.

To your last point...i dont think its a full rebuild. I think if they buy in this roster can be competitive with a few minor tweaks. Im guessing the roster 100% didnt give 2 shits playing in 2020. It will take some investing in the defense this off season but they can field an improved D.

Flowers Shelton Griffen (FA)
Okwara (FA) Parsons (1st) Collins Reddick (FA)
Okudah Cisco (2nd) Walker Amani

It may take a glaring hole at WR in order to do it...but i think you have to in order to see real change. PS...there was a glaring hole at WR this year anyways with them under contract. Go target mid level WRs to replace and its an upgrade on the field already. Higgins and Ross come to mind.

One thing I strongly disagree with is your assessment of Stafford. Regardless of any fans opinion including mine, look at what players, current and former and coaches, current and former say about the man. This guy is highly respected in this league by the people who matter. The cupboard on defense and at WR is bare right now. There are a few building blocks on defense, but a lot of it is projecting future success (Okudah, Hand, Julian Okwara, Walker). The only proven pieces are Collins who is getting up there in age and Flowers. I like Oruwariye as a #2 also. Walker had one good year and hopefully he bounces back and the rest develop but thats all projecting at this point. We could realistically a DE, two DT's, two LB'ers, a safety and a CB, and not just depth but starters. Thats a lot to fill in one off-season, but yes with the right coaching and some luck if can be done.

One thing in reading some recent posts is the hate for Golladay. That guy has done everything right and is a 3rd round pick of ours. I understand the cost, but to me that guy is a bonafide stud and I would not be willing to lose him unless its a tag and trade and we are getting back a 1st rounder. If thats not an option I'd keep him. Look at every team left standing in the playoffs, they all have alpha #1 WR's, and some multiple. Golladay, when healthy, which outside of this year and his rookie year he has been, is a legitimate #1.

 

[tomdalton22]

One thing I strongly disagree with is your assessment of Stafford. Regardless of any fans opinion including mine, look at what players, current and former and coaches, current and former say about the man. This guy is highly respected in this league by the people who matter. The cupboard on defense and at WR is bare right now. There are a few building blocks on defense, but a lot of it is projecting future success (Okudah, Hand, Julian Okwara, Walker). The only proven pieces are Collins who is getting up there in age and Flowers. I like Oruwariye as a #2 also. Walker had one good year and hopefully he bounces back and the rest develop but thats all projecting at this point. We could realistically a DE, two DT's, two LB'ers, a safety and a CB, and not just depth but starters. Thats a lot to fill in one off-season, but yes with the right coaching and some luck if can be done.

One thing in reading some recent posts is the hate for Golladay. That guy has done everything right and is a 3rd round pick of ours. I understand the cost, but to me that guy is a bonafide stud and I would not be willing to lose him unless its a tag and trade and we are getting back a 1st rounder. If thats not an option I'd keep him. Look at every team left standing in the playoffs, they all have alpha #1 WR's, and some multiple. Golladay, when healthy, which outside of this year and his rookie year he has been, is a legitimate #1.

Every team left has a stud QB (Lions don't), an adequate or good defense (the Lions don't), a few "difference makers" on each side of the ball (the Lions don't have any on either side of the ball). A stud WR doesn't mean shit if you don't have all of those other things as well. Plus, I don't think KG is a "stud"...he's pretty good.

Kelce, Hill, Diggs, Godwin, Evans, Adams are all better than KG

 

[LKP]

Extend Stafford 3 years. For five more years of Stafford

All gms think he is top 10 at least. Some top 5

Tape shows top 10 at least too. Stats screwed due to team and injuries around him

 

[detroit1811]

Extend Stafford 3 years. For five more years of Stafford

All gms think he is top 10 at least. Some top 5

Tape shows top 10 at least too. Stats screwed due to team and injuries around him

I just think with where this team stands now, especially with another GM and coach I want to find our QB for the next 15 years. Even if we build around Stafford the next couple years I don't see this team being good enough to compete even inside this division, until Rodgers retires so might as well get a young guy now and develop him. Just my two cents its gonna suck short term, but better then being mediocre until Stafford retires and then trying to find a QB.

 

[LKP]

I just think with where this team stands now, especially with another GM and coach I want to find our QB for the next 15 years. Even if we build around Stafford the next couple years I don't see this team being good enough to compete even inside this division, until Rodgers retires so might as well get a young guy now and develop him. Just my two cents its gonna suck short term, but better then being mediocre until Stafford retires and then trying to find a QB.

Wilson, Lance or Traskor Jones are not that guy

Stafford gives lions a really good qb for 5 more years..you can win with him with a gm who gets it right for rest of roster. Qb is set. Holmes fix roster. Campbell fixes scheme and culture

 

[detroit1811]

Every team left has a stud QB (Lions don't), an adequate or good defense (the Lions don't), a few "difference makers" on each side of the ball (the Lions don't have any on either side of the ball). A stud WR doesn't mean shit if you don't have all of those other things as well. Plus, I don't think KG is a "stud"...he's pretty good.

Kelce, Hill, Diggs, Godwin, Evans, Adams are all better than KG

Brady had an amazing defense last year and a shitty supporting cast on offense and people thought he might be done. Look what happens when he actually gets someone to throw too.
Kenny Golladay is not far behind Evans, and Godwin IMO. If he was healthy this year people might even say he was better.

I just think people are discounting how important the WR position is and think you can just throw bodies out there and expect results. Why get rid of a Pro Bowl WR in his prime for nothing?

 

[LKP]

Tag depends on if cap is 180 million or 198 million

 

[detroit1811]

Wilson, Lance or Traskor Jones are not that guy

Stafford gives lions a really good qb for 5 more years..you can win with him with a gm who gets it right for rest of roster. Qb is set. Holmes fix roster. Campbell fixes scheme and culture

That is something I can't attest too because I do not pay enough attention to college football. If Holmes determines thats the case get draft capital now, and purge this roster of the bloated salaries. Take on the dead money now and sign a stop gap (Winston). Develop the young guys on the roster and the incoming draft picks and have an eye towards 2022. I know thats not the sexy choice, but with the extra draft capital and cap space after the dead money goes off the books we would have a real chance at building something. Maybe I'm just pessimistic right now, but I don't wanna run this back the next two years to shoot for 8-8. I've been a loyal Lions fan since early 2000's and I just wanna see a winner out there and it that means sacrificing a year to get this roster to where it belongs I can accept that. I cannot accept another 3-5 years of mediocrity (or worse) and then doing it all over again.

 

[detroit1811]

Tag depends on if cap is 180 million or 198 million

What I've read on the cap projections seem to be optimistic so hopefully its on the high side, but regardless I don't agree with that. You can make cap space easy enough. I know that pushes problems further down the line, but if that means you can retain a star player or you can tag and trade to get something of value in return you do it.

 

[tomdalton22]

Brady had an amazing defense last year and a shitty supporting cast on offense and people thought he might be done. Look what happens when he actually gets someone to throw too.
Kenny Golladay is not far behind Evans, and Godwin IMO. If he was healthy this year people might even say he was better.

I just think people are discounting how important the WR position is and think you can just throw bodies out there and expect results. Why get rid of a Pro Bowl WR in his prime for nothing?

Yes, Brady was better this year since he had better weapons. 3 pro bowl WRs and a pro bowl TE.

You get rid of Golladay if he is going to demand too much money. $20M a year is too much for a guy like him. He's pretty good, just not $20M a year good.

 

[LKP]

Yes, Brady was better this year since he had better weapons. 3 pro bowl WRs and a pro bowl TE.

You get rid of Golladay if he is going to demand too much money. $20M a year is too much for a guy like him. He's pretty good, just not $20M a year good.

Injury should make him cheaper after missing 11 games. But you pay for potential. Agree I wouldn't pay him 20 per either. But Amari Cooper got that so that is the price for a top 10 WR

Hip injury any long term affects (think DeAndre Levy) would be another reason to shy away

Golladay was a really good player and you guys underrate him. But the price and health have to be right to keep him

Tag and trade is possible but you need to make that deal quickly

We won't get a comp pick because the Lions should be signing free agents too not just letting Golladay walk for a 2022 3rd round pick

 

[LKP]

And the mediocrity is not because of Stafford

The mediocrity is not figuring out rushing attack or defense. And also having coaches that bring a bad culture and bad schemes that don't help the rushing attack or defense or hinder Stafford

The reason we lose 8 or more games is due to everything else. I blame the Ford Field janitor and concession stand workers before I blame Stafford. Stafford is that freaking good. He is not mediocre. Zach Wilson can be mediocre. Trask will be terrible IMO. Lance will be mediocre.

Lions can keep Stafford, spend in FA and hit on the draft with the picks they have (or other trade backs for more draft capital. Can get an extra 2nd if we move from like 7 to 14 or something like that. Still got to hit on the pick if its pick 7 or pick 14.

Trufant, Shelton, Nick Williams, Coleman, Joe Dahl, Chase Daniel, Christian Jones can free up alot of cap space once you cut them

 

[detroit1811]

And the mediocrity is not because of Stafford

The mediocrity is not figuring out rushing attack or defense. And also having coaches that bring a bad culture and bad schemes that don't help the rushing attack or defense or hinder Stafford

The reason we lose 8 or more games is due to everything else. I blame the Ford Field janitor and concession stand workers before I blame Stafford. Stafford is that freaking good. He is not mediocre. Zach Wilson can be mediocre. Trask will be terrible IMO. Lance will be mediocre.

Lions can keep Stafford, spend in FA and hit on the draft with the picks they have (or other trade backs for more draft capital. Can get an extra 2nd if we move from like 7 to 14 or something like that. Still got to hit on the pick if its pick 7 or pick 14.

Trufant, Shelton, Nick Williams, Coleman, Joe Dahl, Chase Daniel, Christian Jones can free up alot of cap space once you cut them

Like I stated in the opening I love Stafford. I don't think he is a tier 1 and probably not a tier 2 QB (Mahomes and Rodgers are probably by themselves in tier 1 this year). Tier 2 would probably consist of Josh Allen, Deshaun Watson, Russell Wilson, and maybe Tom Brady. I would lump Stafford in with the likes of Lamar Jackson, Ryan Tannehill, Justin Herbert, Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield. Obviously he's not similar to all those guys, but thats the group of quarterback he is in with, IMO. Very good, but cannot put his team on his back and carry them week in and week out.

I just do not see him, even with a better supporting cast, outdoing Rodgers in this division if Rodgers can keep this up another couple years.

 

[LKP]

Like I stated in the opening I love Stafford. I don't think he is a tier 1 and probably not a tier 2 QB (Mahomes and Rodgers are probably by themselves in tier 1 this year). Tier 2 would probably consist of Josh Allen, Deshaun Watson, Russell Wilson, and maybe Tom Brady. I would lump Stafford in with the likes of Lamar Jackson, Ryan Tannehill, Justin Herbert, Kyler Murray, Baker Mayfield. Obviously he's not similar to all those guys, but thats the group of quarterback he is in with, IMO. Very good, but cannot put his team on his back and carry them week in and week out.

I just do not see him, even with a better supporting cast, outdoing Rodgers in this division if Rodgers can keep this up another couple years.

Stafford for sure can put the team on his back (see 2016 as a good example). There are some teams that are so bad that you can't carry them. The Lions have had those teams and 2020 is a great example. Maholmes, Rodgers, Jesus Christ himself couldn't have gotten more than 5 wins for the Lions this year.

 

[tomdalton22]

Stafford for sure can put the team on his back (see 2016 as a good example). There are some teams that are so bad that you can't carry them. The Lions have had those teams and 2020 is a great example.

finally, you understand how bad a lot of the Lions teams have been. You finally see how wrong you have been when you tell us how the teams "floor is 10-12 wins" :lmao:

 

[LKP]

finally, you understand how bad a lot of the Lions teams have been. You finally see how wrong you have been when you tell us how the teams "floor is 10-12 wins" :lmao:

They fell through the floor due to crazy injuries and unexpected bad play from good players in the past. Hidden basement

 

[Mitchrapp]

Trade him. If they can't toss him aside. 12 years is enough.

 

[detroit1811]

finally, you understand how bad a lot of the Lions teams have been. You finally see how wrong you have been when you tell us how the teams "floor is 10-12 wins" :lmao:

Is his defense the Lions do seem to always underperform. Credit that to coaching, bad luck, the refs, or whatever you will. I honestly expected going into this year to win 7-10 games. I did not in any way see this defense performing as bad as it did. I thought the D-Line would struggle(Especially the interior), but I figured we were gonna be okay at LB'er and have a very strong secondary. As it turns out the D-line might have been our best unit and the LB'ers were historically bad. Overall none of them were even adequate. I blame a lot of that on horrendous coaching because there was enough talent to be better then what they were.