What to do with Stafford

[LKP]

Is his defense the Lions do seem to always underperform. Credit that to coaching, bad luck, the refs, or whatever you will. I honestly expected going into this year to win 7-10 games. I did not in any way see this defense performing as bad as it did. I thought the D-Line would struggle(Especially the interior), but I figured we were gonna be okay at LB'er and have a very strong secondary. As it turns out the D-line might have been our best unit and the LB'ers were historically bad. Overall none of them were even adequate. I blame a lot of that on horrendous coaching because there was enough talent to be better then what they were.

Collins was solid but had to do it all himself (and Collins many other good years in that system). Davis actually graded well but they used him way way less. Christian Jones is bad other than experienced backup. Tavai was beyond awful. Tavai did much better his rookie year so something happened. Was it coaching/injury etc. Ragland is a run stopper but had to rush and cover way too much. Okwara and Bryant got hurt killing any potential they had to offer

Lack of pass rush and bad coverage LB is disaster. Throw in CB injuries. Like Trufant missed what 10+ games. Okudah missed 9. Coleman like 5. Like how can you compete without that many CBs, plus no pass rush, plus no LBs

Nobody expected the defense to be that bad. maybe you expected below average, but that bad, nobody saw coming. It was historically bad pretty much.

Trufant did much better year before prior to injury, so did Walker in 2018/2019, so did Tavai his rookie year, was decent at times, so did Jamie Collins, so did Nick Williams, so did Shelton, Okudah supposed to be so much better as pick 3 for a reason. Every single player got worse than they were other than Romeo Okwara. Flowers was better but missed 9 games from broken forearm. That is a huge injury that everyone underrates.

We went 3-1 in the games Golladay finished. Maybe we missed him those 11 games. Big FA signing Vaita injury most of year. Jackson solid rookie but fizzed and still a rookie.

 

[Mitchrapp]

So what you're saying is we have good players but they under-preform every year.

 

[LKP]

So what you're saying is we have good players but they under-preform every year.

2020 they for sure underperformed. Plus some major injuries. Flowers, 3 CBs among others. Dis tew much

Then your 30 PPG offense potential loses the top WR for 11 games.

Plus bad coaching

But now it's a new day

 

[detroit1811]

Collins was solid but had to do it all himself (and Collins many other good years in that system). Davis actually graded well but they used him way way less. Christian Jones is bad other than experienced backup. Tavai was beyond awful. Tavai did much better his rookie year so something happened. Was it coaching/injury etc. Ragland is a run stopper but had to rush and cover way too much. Okwara and Bryant got hurt killing any potential they had to offer

Lack of pass rush and bad coverage LB is disaster. Throw in CB injuries. Like Trufant missed what 10+ games. Okudah missed 9. Coleman like 5. Like how can you compete without that many CBs, plus no pass rush, plus no LBs

Nobody expected the defense to be that bad. maybe you expected below average, but that bad, nobody saw coming. It was historically bad pretty much.

Trufant did much better year before prior to injury, so did Walker in 2018/2019, so did Tavai his rookie year, was decent at times, so did Jamie Collins, so did Nick Williams, so did Shelton, Okudah supposed to be so much better as pick 3 for a reason. Every single player got worse than they were other than Romeo Okwara. Flowers was better but missed 9 games from broken forearm. That is a huge injury that everyone underrates.

We went 3-1 in the games Golladay finished. Maybe we missed him those 11 games. Big FA signing Vaita injury most of year. Jackson solid rookie but fizzed and still a rookie.

When I said none were adequate I was talking about all three levels of the defense not the LB'ers. I know Collins was solid for the most part and Davis was a decent role player. Ragland was overmatched and Tavai and Jones should not have roster spots, unless the new staff actually sees something in Tavai.

Also I did say I did not see the defense performing this bad, I thought they would be middle of the road.

 

[Mitchrapp]

2020 they for sure underperformed. Plus some major injuries. Flowers, 3 CBs among others. Dis tew much

Then your 30 PPG offense potential loses the top WR for 11 games.

Plus bad coaching

But now it's a new day

30? Where did get that number from with or without him we weren't close to 30 points a game. 24 this season, less the previous two.

 

[LKP]

When I said none were adequate I was talking about all three levels of the defense not the LB'ers. I know Collins was solid for the most part and Davis was a decent role player. Ragland was overmatched and Tavai and Jones should not have roster spots, unless the new staff actually sees something in Tavai.

Also I did say I did not see the defense performing this bad, I thought they would be middle of the road.

Exactly. Nobody thought they would be historically bad. Middle of the road defense, healthy Golladay, Lions could get 10 wins. But then we would have the same coaches

But you can change 10-12 starters in an offseason. The Lions literally did that last year. They just added 10-12 people that didn't work out for the most part (some were good adds like Swift)

So given that you can change that many starters, it makes sense to keep Stafford and build around him because you can win with a QB of Staffords caliber with average defense

 

[LKP]

30? Where did get that number from with or without him we weren't close to 30 points a game. 24 this season, less the previous two.

30 potential. He missed 11 games. 2019 Stafford missed 8 games. 2018 other issues (Cooter/conservative offense/Oline problems etc)

Stop looking at just the stats. It's more than that. The offense had 30 PPG potential on all cylinders. And missing KG really hurt that. We went 3-1 in the games Golladay finished this past year

 

[Mitchrapp]

30 potential. He missed 11 games. 2019 Stafford missed 8 games. 2018 other issues (Cooter/conservative offense/Oline problems etc)

Stop looking at just the stats. It's more than that. The offense had 30 PPG potential on all cylinders. And missing KG really hurt that. We went 3-1 in the games Golladay finished this past year

I don't care who missed what this is not a 30 point offense.

 

[mhughes0021]

Exactly. Nobody thought they would be historically bad. Middle of the road defense, healthy Golladay, Lions could get 10 wins. But then we would have the same coaches

But you can change 10-12 starters in an offseason. The Lions literally did that last year. They just added 10-12 people that didn't work out for the most part (some were good adds like Swift)

So given that you can change that many starters, it makes sense to keep Stafford and build around him because you can win with a QB of Staffords caliber with average defense

False....i told you last summer the defense would be horrible because we didnt address the pass rush....at all.

Injuries and no depth made it exactly what i expected.

 

[detroit1811]

Exactly. Nobody thought they would be historically bad. Middle of the road defense, healthy Golladay, Lions could get 10 wins. But then we would have the same coaches

But you can change 10-12 starters in an offseason. The Lions literally did that last year. They just added 10-12 people that didn't work out for the most part (some were good adds like Swift)

So given that you can change that many starters, it makes sense to keep Stafford and build around him because you can win with a QB of Staffords caliber with average defense

I would 100% agree with you on Stafford if he was 5 years younger. Being he is turning 34 soon and has a recent injury history I just think its time to find the future and get assets for him while he still has value.

 

[tomdalton22]

here we go...another thread that LKP goes off the rails with stupid hypotheticals. 30 point offense, 10 win team, etc...

 

[mhughes0021]

One thing I strongly disagree with is your assessment of Stafford. Regardless of any fans opinion including mine, look at what players, current and former and coaches, current and former say about the man. This guy is highly respected in this league by the people who matter. The cupboard on defense and at WR is bare right now. There are a few building blocks on defense, but a lot of it is projecting future success (Okudah, Hand, Julian Okwara, Walker). The only proven pieces are Collins who is getting up there in age and Flowers. I like Oruwariye as a #2 also. Walker had one good year and hopefully he bounces back and the rest develop but thats all projecting at this point. We could realistically a DE, two DT's, two LB'ers, a safety and a CB, and not just depth but starters. Thats a lot to fill in one off-season, but yes with the right coaching and some luck if can be done.

One thing in reading some recent posts is the hate for Golladay. That guy has done everything right and is a 3rd round pick of ours. I understand the cost, but to me that guy is a bonafide stud and I would not be willing to lose him unless its a tag and trade and we are getting back a 1st rounder. If thats not an option I'd keep him. Look at every team left standing in the playoffs, they all have alpha #1 WR's, and some multiple. Golladay, when healthy, which outside of this year and his rookie year he has been, is a legitimate #1.

Ive always thought he was a great leader. And great in the community. His wife sucks for the community. But you cant argue that his rating puts him middle of the pack over the last 12 years with a couple outlier years putting him inside the top 10. Most years hes 15-20. Its not really a debatable thing...its a fact based statistic.

 

[tomdalton22]

False....i told you last summer the defense would be horrible because we didnt address the pass rush....at all.

Injuries and no depth made it exactly what i expected.

everyone (except LKP) thought the defense would be bad again.

 

[Mitchrapp]

If players like Brady, Rivers, Montana and more people can finish their career on another team, even Brees was traded at one point so can Matty Padford.

 

[LKP]

Ive always thought he was a great leader. And great in the community. His wife sucks for the community. But you cant argue that his rating puts him middle of the pack over the last 12 years with a couple outlier years putting him inside the top 10. Most years hes 15-20. Its not really a debatable thing...its a fact based statistic.

Last 10 years
5th 2011
22nd 2012
19th 2013
21st 2014 (we still won 11 games by the way)
9th 2015
13th 2016
6th 2017
25th 2018
6th 2019
14th 2020

2009 rookie year on terrible team and 2010 only played 2.5 games (2 of them hurt but did fine)

6 out of 10 top 14 ranked or better is not outlier lol. 3 top 10 is not outlier years lol

2012-2014 he had more int problems (team had weapon problems too and Oline problems) but since then he has been fixed

Your problem Hughes and all, is you look at QB rating in a vacumn. also you are remembering 2012-2014 Stafford way way way more. He changed and got better since 2015 (Cooter on)

QB rating is so much a team stat it's not even funny. If you have drops, if you don't have protection, if you have no run game, if you have way less short fields than most other QBS) it will affect your QB rating. You all should know that. It makes you bad football fans not knowing that. Nothing to do with Stafford. Just know QB rating is skewed by other team things

Stafford has been really good since 2015 despite some major major team problems. Worst run game since 2011 of all QBs. Least short fields since 2011 of all QBs. One of the worst defenses especially the 2020 version of "defense" for all QBs

And through all that, Stafford has performed well.
2012-2014 Stafford doesn't exist anymore folks

Stafford is a very good QB

If anything is not relevant. It's Staffords 2012-2014 performances

 

[mhughes0021]

Last 10 years
5th 2011
22nd 2012
19th 2013
21st 2014 (we still won 11 games by the way)
9th 2015
13th 2016
6th 2017
25th 2018
6th 2019
14th 2020

2009 rookie year on terrible team and 2010 only played 2.5 games (2 of them hurt but did fine)

6 out of 10 top 14 ranked or better is not outlier lol. 3 top 10 is not outlier years lol

2012-2014 he had more int problems (team had weapon problems too and Oline problems) but since then he has been fixed

Your problem Hughes and all, is you look at QB rating in a vacumn. also you are remembering 2012-2014 Stafford way way way more. He changed and got better since 2015 (Cooter on)

QB rating is so much a team stat it's not even funny. If you have drops, if you don't have protection, if you have no run game, if you have way less short fields than most other QBS) it will affect your QB rating. You all should know that. It makes you bad football fans not knowing that. Nothing to do with Stafford. Just know QB rating is skewed by other team things

Stafford has been really good since 2015 despite some major major team problems. Worst run game since 2011 of all QBs. Least short fields since 2011 of all QBs. One of the worst defenses especially the 2020 version of "defense" for all QBs

And through all that, Stafford has performed well.
2012-2014 Stafford doesn't exist anymore folks

Stafford is a very good QB

If anything is not relevant. It's Staffords 2012-2014 performances

even with you cherry picking the last 10 years hes still only averages 14th lol. Thats what i said...middle of the pack.

 

[LKP]

even with you cherry picking the last 10 years hes still only averages 14th lol. Thats what i said...middle of the pack.

2012-2014 skews it. He is not the same player as then (also has better weapons since then and throws less ints).

A guy named Jim Caldwell came to town and improved his game greatly

Stafford has been a great player since 2015 with Cooter/Bevell. And you all know it.

Those QB ratings with the support the Lions gave, is equivalent to 120 QB ratings

 

[tomdalton22]

even with you cherry picking the last 10 years hes still only averages 14th lol. Thats what i said...middle of the pack.

Come on, you know how it works with LKP. You remove the worst years because they don't count. 13th was his worst ranking. His average is 7.8 Top 10 baby!

5th 2011
9th 2015
13th 2016
6th 2017
6th 2019

Even with LKP math...how does he get to elite, better than Rogers???

 

[LKP]

Come on, you know how it works with LKP. You remove the worst years because they don't count. 13th was his worst ranking. His average is 7.8 Top 10 baby!

5th 2011
9th 2015
13th 2016
6th 2017
6th 2019

Even with LKP math...how does he get to elite, better than Rogers???

QB rating is part team stat you dummies. Stafford elite on tape no matter what rating

 

[tomdalton22]

QB rating is part team stat you dummies. Stafford elite on tape no matter what rating

you are the the one that brought up his ratings...dummy:lmao: