Thoughts on Israel

[zyxt9]

No. I'm not saying that Israel could or should just provide the Palestinians with a better future. What I am saying is that it is only natural for them to be blamed for everything that goes wrong in Gaza, whether it is their fault or not. It's really basic human behavior. If there are walls and checkpoints and embargoes, there's going to be resistance. Build bigger walls, lock down checkpoints, and increase embargoes and wait 'til they learn to blame themselves and be happy about it isn't a realistic solution.

I'm not disagreeing with you on this, just the effectiveness of removing them in terms of achieving peace. Removing them with the current mindset will just result in more Israelis being killed.

It comes down to an unwillingness to accept Israel's existence and Jews to live. Jews do not have the same mindset about Palestinians. The requirement for change therefore lies squarely on the Palestinians.

 

[tinselwolverine]

Jews would actually be willing to pay for every Palestinian to be able to sit home and not work or do anything productive in any way, provided the Palestinians stop trying to kill them and recognize their right to exist.

Me, I would take that gig.

 

[tinselwolverine]

I'm not disagreeing with you on this, just the effectiveness of removing them in terms of achieving peace. Removing them with the current mindset will just result in more Israelis being killed.

It comes down to an unwillingness to accept Israel's existence and Jews to live.

It really just comes down to the former. If Israel ceased to exist as a nation Palestinians wouldn't have a problem with Jews living.

 

[zyxt9]

What do liberals have to do with anything? Tell me what you think a conservative solution looks like.

I wasn't saying the Conservatives have a solution worth pursuing. I was merely countering the demands that have been made to date by the Liberals.

I'd rather the Liberals focus on demanding that Palestinians accept Israel as a legit state and that genocide of Jews is not an acceptable goal in any scenario.

They demand Israel accept a dual state environment, which I am 100% in agreement with. But until the Palestinians are willing to accept it, the point is moot. Israel is willing to accept a dual state, the Palestinians are not. How is that Israel's fault? How does that equate to Isreal being in the wrong?

 

[Gulo Blue]

And that will stop the smuggling via tunnels and other methods...how exactly? The problem is the DEMAND side of the equation. The Palestinians are willingly driving the demand side for killing Jews. Until that demand side is at least reduced to a minority, the Israelis can implement all of what you have said without any change to the true problem, Palestinian unwillingness to accept Israel as a legit state and the right of Jews to live.

I didn't say they should stop smuggling or quit looking for tunnels. I understand they can't just flip a switch and allow total freedom. The reason I keep talking about investing money and resources into expanding legitimate movement through checkpoints is because I acknowledge how difficult and essential blocking certain things are.

 

[zyxt9]

It really just comes down to the former. If Israel ceased to exist as a nation Palestinians wouldn't have a problem with Jews living.

So again, the Palestinians are unwilling to accept Israel as a legit state. Israel will not willingly agree to stop existing, nor should they. The Jews have a right to have their state continue and are willing (at least a majority are willing) to allow for the creation of a separate Palestinian nation. That was one of the hopes when Gaza and West Bank were granted the right to their own government, yet the result was the election of extremist parties who are preventing the next step in achieving a dual state.

 

[Gulo Blue]

I'd rather the Liberals focus on demanding that Palestinians accept Israel as a legit state and that genocide of Jews is not an acceptable goal in any scenario.

Demand that people accept something? That's not a strategy. That's not a reasonable thing to expect. Changing minds is very difficult, very slow work. It is not something that can be demanded. Demanding that people change their minds tends to push them the other way.

 

[zyxt9]

I didn't say they should stop smuggling or quit looking for tunnels. I understand they can't just flip a switch and allow total freedom. The reason I keep talking about investing money and resources into expanding legitimate movement through checkpoints is because I acknowledge how difficult and essential blocking certain things are.

The flipping of the switch will happen when Palestinians accept the right of Israel to exist. If they accept that, then there is no longer the need to try and fight against Israel and kill the Jews.

It really is that bloody simple. Acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, then their is no longer the need to remove Israel, so the international community can then begin the process of forcing Israel to allow Palestinians to have their own state and hammer out agreed borders.

It all begins with the acceptance of Israel to exist. After that, all of the pressure falls upon Israel and everyone, myself included, would be right in criticizing Israel if they balk at the opportunity to allow a Palestine state to exist. Then there is the inevitable negotiation over borders, which is where the Jerusalem being removed from the entire situation will likely need to become reality, otherwise further fighting will continue.

It is all about Acceptance. The current barrier to that is the Palestinian people and their elected government. Put the focus and blame where it belongs if you truly want a resolution to the problem.

 

[tinselwolverine]

So again, the Palestinians are unwilling to accept Israel as a legit state...

Not all, but yes...many people of Islam - not just Palestinians but many all across the region - view the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East as a desecration of Islam; just like the way Usama bin Laden viewed the US Military in Saudi Arabia as a desecration of Islam.

Their attitude is, if the Jewish state itself went away, they got no quarrel with Jews per se.

And the ones who share this perspective are freakin' zealous.

And as Gulo points out, changin' shit like that is pretty damn difficult...

 

[Thumb]

No amount of fact/truth will ever convince him or thumb - that's partly what makes them extremists. Thumb actually thinks Hamas' failure rate is a reason Israel should not be targeting their munitions and turd thinks if you say Israel is better than Hamas that means you support intentional killing of civilians because that's all Israel is doing in his simple, bigoted mind.

Oh? Tell me what else I think.

And what amount of truth? You are rambling on yet you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. And I'm an extremest because I don't just blindly accept whatever the Israeli government does as the right thing even when the UN security council and the world court have found them in violation of things? Or am I an extremest because I'm not a tail-wagging slappie like you who just accepts whatever the conservative or popular opinion tells you to believe. Arabs bad, Jews good right sparty? You're such a one-dimensional drone it's pathetic.

 

[zyxt9]

Demand that people accept something? That's not a strategy. That's not a reasonable thing to expect. Changing minds is very difficult, very slow work. It is not something that can be demanded. Demanding that people change their minds tends to push them the other way.

That is their choice. Accept Israel's right to exist and become free of their restrictions, or continue attacking them and then crying about it when they retaliate, perpetuating the same ol' situation.

What do you possibly think Israel can do to improve the situation that keeps them protected? Everything depends on the Palestinians. Problem is, anyone currently going there and even suggesting Israel has the right to exist will be summarily beheaded due to their intolerance and hate. Yet, somehow, Israel is to blame for that, right? They have no right to exist, right? That is what is implied by all the fingers pointing blame in Israel's direction.

 

[Thumb]

So again, the Palestinians are unwilling to accept Israel as a legit state. Israel will not willingly agree to stop existing, nor should they. The Jews have a right to have their state continue and are willing (at least a majority are willing) to allow for the creation of a separate Palestinian nation. That was one of the hopes when Gaza and West Bank were granted the right to their own government, yet the result was the election of extremist parties who are preventing the next step in achieving a dual state.

Wow, let's just continue making blanket black and white, all or nothing comments that do absolutely nothing to improve the situation.

Better see a doctor, looks as if you have contracted foot-in-mouth disease.

 

[Gulo Blue]

The flipping of the switch will happen when Palestinians accept the right of Israel to exist. If they accept that, then there is no longer the need to try and fight against Israel and kill the Jews.

It really is that bloody simple. Acknowledge the right of Israel to exist, then their is no longer the need to remove Israel, so the international community can then begin the process of forcing Israel to allow Palestinians to have their own state and hammer out agreed borders.

It all begins with the acceptance of Israel to exist. After that, all of the pressure falls upon Israel and everyone, myself included, would be right in criticizing Israel if they balk at the opportunity to allow a Palestine state to exist. Then there is the inevitable negotiation over borders, which is where the Jerusalem being removed from the entire situation will likely need to become reality, otherwise further fighting will continue.

It is all about Acceptance. The current barrier to that is the Palestinian people and their elected government. Put the focus and blame where it belongs if you truly want a resolution to the problem.

Phase 1: Wall-in Palestinians.

Phase 2: ...

Phase 3: The Palestinians all change their minds.

 

[Gulo Blue]

What do you possibly think Israel can do to improve the situation that keeps them protected?

Please see post 174, 177, or 185.

 

[zyxt9]

Not all, but yes...many people of Islam - not just Palestinians but many all across the region - view the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East as a desecration of Islam; just like the way Usama bin Laden viewed the US Military in Saudi Arabia as a desecration of Islam.

Their attitude is, if the Jewish state itself went away, they got no quarrel with Jews per se.

And the ones who share this perspective are freakin' zealous.

And as Gulo points out, changin' shit like that is pretty damn difficult...

Absolutely, it is damn near impossible, particularly when the zealots are in control...which is why it is so important for a Moderate to somehow come into power and survive any/all assassination attempts.

Currently, the Prophet himself could return and suggest Israel has the right to exist and would summarily be executed.

The only true hope is likely through quality education providing a Moderate belief system and create a new mentality of Acceptance. That will likely take at least 50 years from the point of time it is successfully rolled out across the region until the extremists are no longer the majority. One hope for a faster resolution is the power of the internet and social media. Unfortunately, to date that has only served to allow the extremists to spread their messages of hate and internet chat rooms like this one to imply the problem is Israel doesn't have the right to exist, implying the extremist Muslims are right and justified in killing Jews.

 

[Gulo Blue]

Put the focus and blame where it belongs if you truly want a resolution to the problem.

One thing I'd add is that there is a difference between looking for blame and looking for causes. The problem will never be solved with the focus on blame.

 

[zyxt9]

Please see post 174, 177, or 185.

That does not keep them protected. As already mentioned and you agreed, the only result of those proposals is more tunnels and continuation of smuggling. Not to mention how the smuggling will actually increase as drones start making deliveries. It won't be hard to smuggle things on drones, or fly a drone in a manner that the radar signature appears to be that of a legit drone, hiding the one doing the smuggling.

As long as the demand is in place, the smuggling and killing continue. Accepting Israel dramatically reduces the demand and allows for negotiations to move forward. Until then, it is status quo. That is the only legit peaceful resolution. Israel will not give up their right to exist, so it is either accept that fact or continue to wage wars.

 

[Gulo Blue]

That does not keep them protected. As already mentioned and you agreed, the only result of those proposals is more tunnels and continuation of smuggling. Not to mention how the smuggling will actually increase as drones start making deliveries. It won't be hard to smuggle things on drones, or fly a drone in a manner that the radar signature appears to be that of a legit drone, hiding the one doing the smuggling.

As long as the demand is in place, the smuggling and killing continue. Accepting Israel dramatically reduces the demand and allows for negotiations to move forward. Until then, it is status quo. That is the only legit peaceful resolution. Israel will not give up their right to exist, so it is either accept that fact or continue to wage wars.

Even after I said that I wasn't advocating that they quit looking for tunnels, you seem to think that's what I'm saying. Spending as much as possible on this means 1st, spending enough to maintain security and 2nd, continue prioritizing spending past what's needed for security to get as much as is safely possible through checkpoints.

 

[Gulo Blue]

One thing I'm a little bit hopeful about is access to the internet. Access has only recently exploded in Gaza and the West Back...like sometime around 2010. Early 2000's it was around 1% and now it's around 50%.

 

[Thumb]

You keep bringing up recognizing Israels right to exist must be the first step.

What about recognizing Palestine's right to exist?

It's so easy to put it all on the arabs right? But Israel could make giant leaps themselves by getting out of the occupied territories and sharing Jerusalem like they are supposed to. But Israel refuses to do that, yet it's the Arab/Palestinians fault because they don't recognize Israels right to exist.

Try looking at the whole problem, not just Israels problems.