Score one for the good guys

[cheeno]

When people I approve of join my teams or gain more influence within them, that's good. When bad people get the boot, that's good. I think the good guys are winning overall because the world is getting better.

Penn State, being an academic institution, is good (but not as good as Michigan.) Athletic departments are in the grey region these days. I don't know how many people are involved with Penn State's athletic department, but I think it's safe to say that that if you call them the bad guys, for every actual bad guy, you're throwing at least dozens of unaware nonparticipants under the bus. Penn State needs to make sure that it's purged itself of the bad guys, and organizations everywhere need to get the message and follow suit.

What do you think of nations? Are any nations good guys in your book?

Well to me when 'good' doesn't take a stand against the 'bad', or fail to take any stand at all, then it is fair to tar whole organizations with the same brush, knowing full well that their are a lot of 'good', unaware, and non-participants that are thrown under the bus.

As far as nations go once you get to that scale things become far more complex and good becomes a much more relative term and less cut and dry.

 

[redandguilty]

Well to me when 'good' doesn't take a stand against the 'bad', or fail to take any stand at all, then it is fair to tar whole organizations with the same brush, knowing full well that their are a lot of 'good', unaware, and non-participants that are thrown under the bus.

As far as nations go once you get to that scale things become far more complex and good becomes a much more relative term and less cut and dry.

So nations get an out because of scale, but the Catholic church doesn't? It's a billion people and the branches are far more autonomous than most people realize. The Vatican's annual operating budget is around $250 M. All the individual Catholic Churches in the US raise that much in an little over a week.

Would you throw yourself under the bus if something happened at an organization you were a part of?

 

[cheeno]

So nations get an out because of scale, but the Catholic church doesn't? It's a billion people and the branches are far more autonomous than most people realize. The Vatican's annual operating budget is around $250 M. All the individual Catholic Churches in the US raise that much in an little over a week.

Would you throw yourself under the bus if something happened at an organization you were a part of?

Second question first; yes I would indeed distance myself from that organization.

Nations get an out not because of the scale of the organization, but the scale of complexity of the issues. Is a war that kills 1,000s worth it if it potentially saves the lives of millions? I don't know. Or international trade and commerce that has the potential to boost one economy while leaving other starving? The Catholic Church hasn't had to face those kinds of issues since the Holy Roman Empire. So it is a lot easier for me to have an opinion on a child molesting priest and his cronies who conspire to cover it up.

Although as you point out the Catholic Church has the budget of a nation despite Jesus' best efforts to the contrary. So maybe they should get a free pass.

 

[redandguilty]

Second question first; yes I would indeed distance myself from that organization.

Nations get an out not because of the scale of the organization, but the scale of complexity of the issues. Is a war that kills 1,000s worth it if it potentially saves the lives of millions? I don't know. Or international trade and commerce that has the potential to boost one economy while leaving other starving? The Catholic Church hasn't had to face those kinds of issues since the Holy Roman Empire. So it is a lot easier for me to have an opinion on a child molesting priest and his cronies who conspire to cover it up.

Although as you point out the Catholic Church has the budget of a nation despite Jesus' best efforts to the contrary. So maybe they should get a free pass.

There's no one entity with the budget of a nation within the Catholic Church. The Vatican isn't in control of the big money, just the $250M. If every Catholic sent the Vatican $1 a year, that would quadruple their budget.

So if the right thing for Penn State people to do is to distance themselves from Penn St, do you think the appropriate response is for Penn St. to dissolve itself as an organization?

 

[Michchamp]

you have no idea what the church's budget is like. it's considered by some sources as one of the wealthiest and also most opaque organizations in the world.

I'm guessing the few scandals related to it just barely scratch the surface of the dirty business the church gets involved in: from laundering money to banking and dealing directly with the mob...

the church is big business. maybe the biggest business in the entire world.

 

[Michchamp]

you have no idea what the church's budget is like. it's considered by some sources as one of the wealthiest and also most opaque organizations in the world.

I'm guessing the few scandals related to it just barely scratch the surface of the dirty business the church gets involved in: from laundering money to banking and dealing directly with the mob...

the church is big business. maybe the biggest business in the entire world.

they've been collecting tithes, interest, and outright plunder for almost 2,000 years now... few - if any - other human institutions can match that.

 

[Michchamp]

The science vs. religion is one popular misconception I wish weren't the case, confusing Catholics with other groups is another.

who is talking about science vs. religion?

 

[cheeno]

There's no one entity with the budget of a nation within the Catholic Church. The Vatican isn't in control of the big money, just the $250M. If every Catholic sent the Vatican $1 a year, that would quadruple their budget.

So if the right thing for Penn State people to do is to distance themselves from Penn St, do you think the appropriate response is for Penn St. to dissolve itself as an organization?

Sandusky's charity The Second Mile already did which probably had a tidy budget of its own. Do I think they are going to shut down the Catholic Church? I highly doubt it.

 

[redandguilty]

you have no idea what the church's budget is like. it's considered by some sources as one of the wealthiest and also most opaque organizations in the world.

I'm guessing the few scandals related to it just barely scratch the surface of the dirty business the church gets involved in: from laundering money to banking and dealing directly with the mob...

the church is big business. maybe the biggest business in the entire world.

The CIA says it's a little over $300M

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/vt.html

 

[redandguilty]

who is talking about science vs. religion?

In my opinion, mostly uninformed people.

 

[Michchamp]

... Do I think they are going to shut down the Catholic Church?

that would be pretty damn cool if they did though.

hire some unemployed people to auction off church property on ebay; pay them a decent salary, along with providing them with health care, and retirement benefits.

it's what jesus would do.

 

[redandguilty]

Sandusky's charity The Second Mile already did which probably had a tidy budget of its own. Do I think they are going to shut down the Catholic Church? I highly doubt it.

No, they won't shut down, but what do you think *should* happen? If the right thing to do in this situation is to walk away, then everyone should walk away and Penn State should at least dissolve their athletic program if not the whole university.

 

[cheeno]

No, they won't shut down, but what do you think *should* happen? If the right thing to do in this situation is to walk away, then everyone should walk away and Penn State should at least dissolve their athletic program if not the whole university.

Since we are so hell bent on comparing Penn State to the Catholic Church; Penn State fired its Pope unceremoniously via phone call. That's a good start in taking steps to what *should* happen. Outing and ex-communicating everyone from the top down who knew about the abuse and covered it up. Of course that won't happen because in the Catholic Church he who has the gold makes the rules.

$300 Million? There is $300 Million worth of artwork in the Pope's bathroom.

 

[redandguilty]

Since we are so hell bent on comparing Penn State to the Catholic Church; Penn State fired its Pope unceremoniously via phone call. That's a good start in taking steps to what *should* happen. Outing and ex-communicating everyone from the top down who knew about the abuse and covered it up. Of course that won't happen because in the Catholic Church he who has the gold makes the rules.

$300 Million? There is $300 Million worth of artwork in the Pope's bathroom.

Yeah, I'm picking Penn St. because they have a football team I suspect you don't want to actually see get shut down. Now that you're talking about purging the bad guys from the organization, we're closer to being on the same page. I take it you see the problem with expecting people to leave the organization...so do you still want to lump them in with the bad guys?

 

[redandguilty]

$300 Million? There is $300 Million worth of artwork in the Pope's bathroom.

Museums are in the same position. Massive wealth. Tiny budgets.

 

[cheeno]

Yeah, I'm picking Penn St. because they have a football team I suspect you don't want to actually see get shut down. Now that you're talking about purging the bad guys from the organization, we're closer to being on the same page. I take it you see the problem with expecting people to leave the organization...so do you still want to lump them in with the bad guys?

Oh yeah we're on the same page. So, when is the Pope getting his walking papers? After his butler gets out of jail?

What exactly are the redeeming qualities of this Church again?

 

[redandguilty]

Oh yeah we're on the same page. So, when is the Pope getting his walking papers? After his butler gets out of jail?

What exactly are the redeeming qualities of this Church again?

If the Pope was involved (yeah, I know his office was accused.)

And the charitable work of the Catholic Church is massive.

 

[cheeno]

If the Pope was involved (yeah, I know his office was accused.)

And the charitable work of the Catholic Church is massive.

The charitable work of Hezbollah is also massive.

 

[redandguilty]

The charitable work of Hezbollah is also massive.

I don't disagree. And the problem of weighing pros vs cons is both challenging and subjective.

 

[cheeno]

I don't disagree. And the problem of weighing pros vs cons is both challenging and subjective.

For that matter Atheists contribute their fair share. What is your specific beef with those who have a healthy disdain of religion?