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Score one for the good guys

Most of what you know, you learned from other people, directly or through books or something. Proving things like "the Earth goes around the Sun" are very difficult if you don't take other people's word for it. You've heard that there are experiments you could run and calculus you could do to show that the Earth going around the Sun fits a model, but odds are you haven't done them and if we pick the right experiment, you won't even know how you would go about proving it. That's not an insult. I just think that human knowledge is too broad for there to be any Renaissance men anymore. Usually, when I say this, someone gets upset about the fundamental difference between testable and untestable ideas. I get the difference. But we actually, personally test such a small fraction of the things we believe, I don't think it's right to act like our personal knowledge is entirely based on logic, reason, and the scientific method. Believers and nonbelievers are both human beings and they come to their beliefs by the same mechanisms - one of those mechanisms is faith. Somethings works for you or you been told it works, so you have faith that it will keep working.

I thought you were an engineer? I don't know or pretend to know everything but I can explain to you why the Earth revolves around the Sun, but I guess that is because I put my 'faith' in gravity. After all it has kept me from flying off into space all these years.
 
no I don't, not in this context, which is germane to the conversation.

yes, I believe ice cream exists. I have seen it. I have eaten it.

no I do not believe god exists. this is not a belief. I do not believe in "atheism" I just do not believe in any religious, spiritual, or the like beings or forces, powers, etc.

I think I addressed this above. The Earth going around the sun is a little bit more of a religious issue than the existence of ice cream, but I think you'll agree that the historic religious significance doesn't change the point.
 
I thought you were an engineer? I don't know or pretend to know everything but I can explain to you why the Earth revolves around the Sun, but I guess that is because I put my 'faith' in gravity. After all it has kept me from flying off into space all these years.

I am an engineer. Can you prove there is gravity between the Earth and the Sun?
 
gee... often because of it.

look at the crusades.

look at the albigensian crusade.

anti-semitic pogroms.

look at what happened to Giordano Bruno...

all committed at the direction of the catholic church leadership.

Power corrupts. As the political power of the Catholic Church has waned, it has improved. Perhaps if the political power of the times were held by non-Catholics, these things would have been much worse. It is the same argument as the one you make dismissing the accomplishments.
 
Have Catholics done terrible things because they were Catholic, or despite it?

I like it when religious kooks like Red fall back on the "we're not perfect; we're people too" defense when cornered about their behavior.

okay... so you're only human why am I supposed to believe in these self-serving myths and legends you're pushing on me again? give you money?
 
I like it when religious kooks like Red fall back on the "we're not perfect; we're people too" defense when cornered about their behavior.

okay... so you're only human why am I supposed to believe in these self-serving myths and legends you're pushing on me again? give you money?

Yes, seriously what is the point? Is it to give you money? Be a nice guy? Get some reward?
 
I like it when religious kooks like Red fall back on the "we're not perfect; we're people too" defense when cornered about their behavior.

okay... so you're only human why am I supposed to believe in these self-serving myths and legends you're pushing on me again? give you money?

I've never asked for money or tried to convert you. I haven't even called you a kook.
 
To you probably not. If four years of physics professors couldn't do it...

I didn't say I don't believe it. I'm asking if you came to believe it through the scientific method or if you're taking someone's word for it.
 
I think he was speaking in general terms, not YOU as in you specifically.

I did include him specifically.

he's being a kook.

to read someone try to compare "gravity," a force that can be measured, and follows certain general laws that can be observed and predicted to a belief in god or the tenets of catholicism is infuriating at this date.

I don't think "kook" is too harsh either. Did you know that he once sent me this article, and didn't understand it was a joke or why it was funny?
 
I didn't say I don't believe it. I'm asking if you came to believe it through the scientific method or if you're taking someone's word for it.

see, in the practice of law, we learn to weigh evidence. when someone has a vested financial interest in getting people to believe in a certain set of facts, we would weigh that less than a more objective source. and I don't think Isaac Newton is collecting checks for every kid that accepts gravity as a law of nature...
 
I did include him specifically.

he's being a kook.

to read someone try to compare "gravity," a force that can be measured, and follows certain general laws that can be observed and predicted to a belief in god or the tenets of catholicism is infuriating at this date.

I don't think "kook" is too harsh either. Did you know that he once sent me this article, and didn't understand it was a joke or why it was funny?

Now come on. At least be honest.
 
see, in the practice of law, we learn to weigh evidence. when someone has a vested financial interest in getting people to believe in a certain set of facts, we would weigh that less than a more objective source. and I don't think Isaac Newton is collecting checks for every kid that accepts gravity as a law of nature...

Observation, evidence, whatever. What's the evidence?
 
I didn't say I don't believe it. I'm asking if you came to believe it through the scientific method or if you're taking someone's word for it.

Why do you believe it? Would you still believe it if the man in the pointy hat told you not to?
 
I did include him specifically.

he's being a kook.

to read someone try to compare "gravity," a force that can be measured, and follows certain general laws that can be observed and predicted to a belief in god or the tenets of catholicism is infuriating at this date.

I don't think "kook" is too harsh either. Did you know that he once sent me this article, and didn't understand it was a joke or why it was funny?

Hilarious.
 
Why do you believe it? Would you still believe it if the man in the pointy hat told you not to?

I'm taking the word of past teachers and textbooks. I believe the appropriate observations were made and fit to the appropriate models even though I did not make those observations or derive those equations. That's how it goes for most science. In the case of Earth-Sun gravity, I also believe that if it were not the case, a lot of stuff they say NASA is doing would have to be lies, but I believe the NASA stuff is true...so there's that.
 
Have fun guys. I am going for a run. I gotta test to see if mass x velocity still equals momentum.
 
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