Fielder for Kinsler trade

[Mitchrapp]

Clairvoyance is such a rare attribute. I wish I had it. I could retire. And you have the proposition reversed. The issue is not what the Tigers' received in return for Fielder; it's what the Rangers received in return for Kinsler -- Fielder and 30MM. The Rangers received the superior value in this transaction.

Mostly because Texas has Profar ready to move up. They lose nothing in trading Kinsler outside that Maybe Fielder won't hit like he use to..doesn't mean it wasn't good for us. Maybe we assume Fielder will bounce back to his career numbers, but if he's 2013 the rest of the way - I'll take a .757 OPS 2B all day over an .819 OPS 1B.

 

[Mitchrapp]

I get the fact that Fielder probably needed to be gone. I just feel we jumped at the first "live" offer and settled for something most will be bitching about in a year or two. And any perceived value is negated by the lack of production.

You assume DD just started talking trade 2 days ago. Cut out the teams that have no need for a 1B/DH and cut out the teams who cannot pay him and it leaves very few teams that would even think about it.

 

[Mitchrapp]

Current Lineup

1. Jackson (CF) - Right
2. Hunter (RF) - Right
3. Cabrera (1B) - Right
4. Martinez (DH) - Switch/but not really a HR hitter
5. Avila (C) - Left, but average HR power
6. Iglesias (SS) - Right
7. Castellanos (3B) - Right
8. Kinsler (2B) - Right
9. Dirks (LF) - Left, but does not hit for power

As far as last year is concerned, Fielder wasn't any different on either side of the plate. So as far as him being a LH, it didn't help at all.

 

[Mitchrapp]

And one last thing: We weren't going to trade a shitty contract without getting one back. Its not like we were going to get prospects for him..

 

[byco42]

Mostly because Texas has Profar ready to move up. They lose nothing in trading Kinsler outside that Maybe Fielder won't hit like he use to..doesn't mean it wasn't good for us. Maybe we assume Fielder will bounce back to his career numbers, but if he's 2013 the rest of the way - I'll take a .757 OPS 2B all day over an .819 OPS 1B.

This is where Kinsler is going to hurt this team:

Road, last three years: OBP .306 SLG .387 OPS .693
2013, road: .317 .418 .735
Kinsler had a '85 Ron Kittle (.295 .467 .762) season on the road in 2013.

Fielder:
Road, last three years OPB .377 SLG .458 OPS .835
2013, road: .350 .448 .797

 

[turok]

And one last thing: We weren't going to trade a shitty contract without getting one back. Its not like we were going to get prospects for him..

Most of us who watched Prince's belly-flop on national TV in Game 6 of the ALCS were absolutely mortified and embarrassed by Fielder's actions. At that moment in time, I didn't care if the Tigers traded him straight up for a bag of jelly donuts. Then his blase comments about his performance and narcisstic attitude about the outcome of the ALCS after the game just infuriated me. Most of us were aware that the Tigers brass would need to eat at least a major part of Fielder's entire remaining salary, if not sweeten any deal involving Prince with another player to make it more palatable, I don't know if the Tigers could have done better than trading a bad 7 year remaining contract for a bad 4 year deal, but IMO, Fielder was edging ever closer to becoming their FT DH, due to his increasingly horrid defense, perhaps as soon as '15, and if so, then Prince would have become even MORE untradeable., not to mention even MORE overpaid by not playing in the field.

 

[tomdalton22]

As it stands right now I think this is a win / win trade. Going into next season the Tigers are better at every single infield position (as long as Miggy moves to 1B). As far as the offense next season I think we need to wait until we see all of the moves DD makes.

 

[Rebbiv]

As it stands right now I think this is a win / win trade. Going into next season the Tigers are better at every single infield position (as long as Miggy moves to 1B). As far as the offense next season I think we need to wait until we see all of the moves DD makes.

How is it a win / win? Please show me where Kinsler makes us better.

This deal, albeit centers around getting rid of Fielder, which I stated should probably have happened, did not make us better. The only winning of this deal is some of you can take satisfaction in Fielder being gone. But by no means does this make us better on paper. It actually makes us worse.

Sure, now it is to see what else happens.

Sticky this thread. And we should come back from and year from now, or even two and see where the thoughts lie. I am betting there are few here that will be doing an about face.

 

[tomdalton22]

How is it a win / win? Please show me where Kinsler makes us better.

This deal, albeit centers around getting rid of Fielder, which I stated should probably have happened, did not make us better. The only winning of this deal is some of you can take satisfaction in Fielder being gone. But by no means does this make us better on paper. It actually makes us worse.

Sure, now it is to see what else happens.

Sticky this thread. And we should come back from and year from now, or even two and see where the thoughts lie. I am betting there are few here that will be doing an about face.

Simply adding Kinsler and removing Fielder doesn't make the team better right now. The trade allows the Tigers to become better now and in the future. The reasons it is a win/win trade.

-The Tigers upgrade defensively at every infield position (from start of 2013 to start of 2014)
-The Tigers had 3 DH/1B and no 2B. Trade gets rid of one and adds a 2B
-Rangers had 3 middle infielders and needed a 1B/DH. Trade accomplishes that.
-Reported that Fielder was somewhat of a cancer in the clubhouse..problem solved.
-The Tigers wanted to unload that long term debt - done
-Tigers in win now mode for 2014 but would have been flirting with the luxury tax threshold after filling needs for 2014. Moving Fielder for Kinsler is an $8M savings for 2014
-Getting rid of Prince makes it easier for the Tigers to sign Miggy.

The team isn't complete yet. This move will allow the Tigers to make some other moves. If you look at Prince's away OPS and compare it to Kinsler's away OPS and don't look at the big picture you will be disapointed. If you look at the big picture it is a win / win for both teams.

 

[grandy]

I wouldn't call either team a winner yet. We can look at past numbers to compare the two, but those can't always predict future performance. Based on what I've read, as far as next season goes, I don't think the Tigers got any better with the move, probably slightly worse...however, we're going to have to wait 4-5 years in order to fully evaluate this trade. Will the Tigers be better off 5 years from now when Kinsler's contract is up as opposed to having a couple years left of Prince? How fast will either player decline?

I guess I'm more of a fan that looks to the future rather than the now, and I like the move. It's why I was also a fan of the Billups-AI trade, it frees up some money for the future. Now hopefully DD is less reckless with that money than Dumars was. Unfortunately, I think throwing a boatload of money at Scherzer would be a bit reckless, and I'm afraid that's what they're going to do.

 

[Rebbiv]

Simply adding Kinsler and removing Fielder doesn't make the team better right now. The trade allows the Tigers to become better now and in the future. The reasons it is a win/win trade.

-The Tigers upgrade defensively at every infield position (from start of 2013 to start of 2014)
-The Tigers had 3 DH/1B and no 2B. Trade gets rid of one and adds a 2B
-Rangers had 3 middle infielders and needed a 1B/DH. Trade accomplishes that.
-Reported that Fielder was somewhat of a cancer in the clubhouse..problem solved.
-The Tigers wanted to unload that long term debt - done
-Tigers in win now mode for 2014 but would have been flirting with the luxury tax threshold after filling needs for 2014. Moving Fielder for Kinsler is an $8M savings for 2014
-Getting rid of Prince makes it easier for the Tigers to sign Miggy.

The team isn't complete yet. This move will allow the Tigers to make some other moves. If you look at Prince's away OPS and compare it to Kinsler's away OPS and don't look at the big picture you will be disapointed. If you look at the big picture it is a win / win for both teams.

Kinsler is not better than Infante on defense. He isn't even better than him offensively.

While I admit getting rid of Fielder and his contract as a win, I do not see taking on Kinsler and his contract anyway but a big fucking Zero.

 

[Rebbiv]

I wouldn't call either team a winner yet. We can look at past numbers to compare the two, but those can't always predict future performance. Based on what I've read, as far as next season goes, I don't think the Tigers got any better with the move, probably slightly worse...however, we're going to have to wait 4-5 years in order to fully evaluate this trade. Will the Tigers be better off 5 years from now when Kinsler's contract is up as opposed to having a couple years left of Prince? How fast will either player decline?

I guess I'm more of a fan that looks to the future rather than the now, and I like the move. It's why I was also a fan of the Billups-AI trade, it frees up some money for the future. Now hopefully DD is less reckless with that money than Dumars was. Unfortunately, I think throwing a boatload of money at Scherzer would be a bit reckless, and I'm afraid that's what they're going to do.

Amen

 

[pr0tege]

Current Lineup

1. Jackson (CF) - Right
2. Hunter (RF) - Right
3. Cabrera (1B) - Right
4. Martinez (DH) - Switch/but not really a HR hitter
5. Avila (C) - Left, but average HR power
6. Iglesias (SS) - Right
7. Castellanos (3B) - Right
8. Kinsler (2B) - Right
9. Dirks (LF) - Left, but does not hit for power

Everything the Tiger's have said after this trade is talking about Kinsler at the top of the lineup so I doubt we will see him outside of the 1 or 2 hole.

 

[turok]

How is it a win / win? Please show me where Kinsler makes us better.

This deal, albeit centers around getting rid of Fielder, which I stated should probably have happened, did not make us better. The only winning of this deal is some of you can take satisfaction in Fielder being gone. But by no means does this make us better on paper. It actually makes us worse.

Sure, now it is to see what else happens.

Sticky this thread. And we should come back from and year from now, or even two and see where the thoughts lie. I am betting there are few here that will be doing an about face.

How do you know that Prince would not have come into ST for the Tigers, being in the same if not even worse physical if not also mental shape than he was @ the start of last season? No one does of course, but it sure doesn't appear from learning about his apparant clubhouse conflicts, dislike of the CoPa environs, and lackadaisical/narcisstic attitude, that he would have any more reason whatsoever to appear in camp more fit, trim and mentally prepared. So stating that this was a win/lose trade is based mostly upon what each player has done in the past, and not so much on the trade's future impact for both teams, both positive and negative, especially in Prince's case the greater potential for further and more rapid regression had he remained with the Tigers. None of the Tigers coaching staff except for Lamont would have any prior experience dealing with Prince, nor would Fielder himself with them. Would a new manager inspire Prince to get his shit together during the off-season? I tend to doubt it. But since being traded to the Rangers, I would think that would provide Prince with more inspiration and motivation to appear at their AZ traning camp in at least better physical condition, coupled with weight loss, b/c IF he doesn't Fielder most certainly will pay the price in that wilting TX heat next summer.

 

[Rebbiv]

Everything the Tiger's have said after this trade is talking about Kinsler at the top of the lineup so I doubt we will see him outside of the 1 or 2 hole.

That's wasn't really a batting order.

Kinsler will be at the top of the order. Just like Jackson. But it doesn't make it right. Let's see where he hits come the end of the year.

 

[kalinecountry]

Most all of us were absolutely shocked yet a bit excited to get Fielder, the only caveat was the length and $$$ for the final 3/4/5 years of that contract.
This year with all the off field problems that affected his play and numbers, and another awful postseason and his comments at the end, as several posted, did not sit well with any of us, and it obviously didn't sit well with DD/management or probably a group of players.
He had to go.....and we don't know what other teams DD tried to move him to, couldn't be many, along with those that were interested might have wanted the Tigers to cover more of the salary.
I get that Kinsler is a different type of player, ops away and all the numbers do not match up to what Fielder has done. We will know by next all-star break how Kinsler will be, but he will be gone a few years before Fielder's contract would have been.
Now we have 2 players instead of 3 that can DH or play 1B.

DD is Not done, I am expecting something else along the lines of LF/CF/Closer.
Signing Scherzer will get many here back to saying "what this, got rid of Fielder and now another long contract that can bite them in the ass"?
Kind of improved the Defense and Pitching along with Defense helps along with the positioning of players, and the Tigers starters were great, still a flawed team, and might still be even after DD is done with everything, but still improved. A lefty bat will help, now that might just let Miggy stay at 3B, .....Morneau is available? split with Victor?
It's still a work in progress.

 

[byco42]

The same brass that signed Fielder to begin with? The same brass that said that Cabrera could keep playing without doing more damage (groin tear)?

Similar value player? What are you smoking? Because I want some. Kinsler is a joke of a player. I would be hard pressed to justify him at $10 Mil a year and without the $30 Mil factor.

2014 = $16 MIL
2015 = $16 MIL (2-yr avg $16 MIL)
2016 = $14 MIL (3 yr avg $15.3 MIL)
2017 = $11 MIL (4-yr avg $14.3 MIL if Option picked up, $15.5 MIL if not, plus $30 MIL = $21.8 MIL)
2018 = $10 MIL Option (5-yr avg $13.4 MIL, add $30 MIL = $19.4 MIL)

It is the $72 Mil between 2018-2020 that will be the difference. But that is still 4 years off Regardless of what others think, we aren't saving but about $2 Mil a year over the next 4 years.

I need some clarification if you would not mind. I understand the 30MM will be paid from '16-'20.

 

[tomdalton22]

Kinsler is not better than Infante on defense. He isn't even better than him offensively.

While I admit getting rid of Fielder and his contract as a win, I do not see taking on Kinsler and his contract anyway but a big fucking Zero.

From what I have read he is an upgrade defensively. More range and equal glove.

You just don't see the big picture.

I'm with you guys on not signing Scherzer to an early extension. I would wait a year and see what happens. I would also wait two years for Miggy unless he is willing to give one hell of a discount for future security.

 

[Mitchrapp]

This is where Kinsler is going to hurt this team:

Road, last three years: OBP .306 SLG .387 OPS .693
2013, road: .317 .418 .735
Kinsler had a '85 Ron Kittle (.295 .467 .762) season on the road in 2013.

Fielder:
Road, last three years OPB .377 SLG .458 OPS .835
2013, road: .350 .448 .797

So. You need to look at more angles that "last 3 road" stats that some of you use. Bring his family to Michigan, still eating home cook meals, etc. and suddenly his road numbers translate to outside Comerica.

Home is home..who says his home stats in Texas won't be his home stats in Comerica.

And Fielder's away numbers go down quite a bit as well. I guess Texas is going to get Prince and his .797 OPS.

:nod:

 

[Rebbiv]

How do you know that Prince would not have come into ST for the Tigers, being in the same if not even worse physical if not also mental shape than he was @ the start of last season? No one does of course, but it sure doesn't appear from learning about his apparant clubhouse conflicts, dislike of the CoPa environs, and lackadaisical/narcisstic attitude, that he would have any more reason whatsoever to appear in camp more fit, trim and mentally prepared. So stating that this was a win/lose trade is based mostly upon what each player has done in the past, and not so much on the trade's future impact for both teams, both positive and negative, especially in Prince's case the greater potential for further and more rapid regression had he remained with the Tigers. None of the Tigers coaching staff except for Lamont would have any prior experience dealing with Prince, nor would Fielder himself with them. Would a new manager inspire Prince to get his shit together during the off-season? I tend to doubt it. But since being traded to the Rangers, I would think that would provide Prince with more inspiration and motivation to appear at their AZ traning camp in at least better physical condition, coupled with weight loss, b/c IF he doesn't Fielder most certainly will pay the price in that wilting TX heat next summer.

Can you provide ONE direct quote from a Tiger player or Tiger official citing that Fielder was not a good teammate? One, just one. Not what a reporter is saying or interrupting, but what someone with firsthand knowledge.

FYI....Ian Kinsler is said to have a bad attitude!

http://www.lonestarball.com/2013/5/17/4340668/texas-rangers-buster-olney

"There?s a lot of people who see Kinsler as one of the cornerstones of the team, and there?s a lot of people who see him as somebody who pops up too much and has a bad attitude."

So are we taking on another team's bad egg? Who knows 100% for sure. I just know from an offensive standpoint this weakens the team. There is no real salary relief until 2018 at the soonest.

And read all my posts. I am not upset at getting rid of Fielder. I am upset with the garbage we got in return. A bag of balls would have been better.